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Protest in the park was ‘sickening’ sight

Published/Last Modified on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 05:17:09 am MST

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To the Editor:

A few months ago, two requests were made to use Sierra Vista’s Veterans’ Memorial Park. One request was by a Cindy Sheehan wannabe wanting to pound a few hundred crosses into the grass. The other was by a representative of the VFW to display a replica of the Vietnam veterans memorial. Neither permit was issued. The aftermath supposedly had Parks and Leisure Services revamping the rules to disallow use of the park for political purposes.

In light of this, I wonder how an out-of-town group of protesters managed to get exclusive use of our park. For half of a day they were allowed to use it as a rally point and to rail against the president of the United States, the U.S. military, its members and veterans. A handful of Sierra Vistans, all veterans, myself included, attempted to stage a counterprotest and were told by the Sierra Vista Police Department that the protesters had paid for exclusive use of the park. We were not allowed anywhere near them and barely eked out permission to drive through the parking lot.

The last thing I wanted to see in the Veterans’ Memorial Park were signs falsely accusing U.S. soldiers of torture and other atrocities and criminal acts in Iraq. To see that was sickening enough to make me think of performing an act of what Henry David Thoreau in 1849 called “Civil Disobedience.” While I agree with the protesters’ right to voice their opinions, I strongly disagree with giving them as a venue the park named for the very people these protesters so vehemently accuse, revile and despise.

The protesters will undoubtedly be back next year. So will I, and maybe I’ll bring Thoreau with me.

Kurt Obermeier

Retired U.S. Army master sergeant

Sierra Vista

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Marc Smith wrote on Dec 19, 2008 9:44 AM:

" Oh My God. People have rights under the US Constitution, that is what makes us a democracy. But, you make the wrong person angry, they may brush your teeth on the concrete, right? Ever been caught? Ever been tortured? Make you NOT want to get caught again.
In closing, they asked my friend SSG Macintire, when he got back from Viet Nam "how many babies did you kill?" He said" Ma'am, never more then I can eat". "

patently offensive wrote on Dec 15, 2008 3:28 PM:

" You want to know what's offensive? the egregious misuse of the apostrophe to pluralize words. An apostrophe is primarily used to show ownership or to truncate a word. Geez ... it's never used to indicate more than one. Where did this come from? This is a travesty of grave proportions ... perhaps a protest is in order? Talk about sacrifice - I've had to sacrifice my good sense just to read half of this garbage! VA!!! Can I claim disability? 25%? My eyes have been wounded!! "

To Kurt wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:39 PM:

" You are fishing. There was nothing illegal about the permit the protestors got. To try and push you fanatic symbolism on the masses is a low. You are a disgrace to the men and women who serve our nation. What a nasty distortion of the Constitution you hold. You are unpatriotic and a disgusting man. "

Teressa wrote on Dec 9, 2008 2:58 PM:

" I tell those I meet this when we come across the subject, as well as on the net. As for meeting terrorists themselves and telling them? Sorry, I can't seem to find their phone numbers. Perhaps their is a terrorist phone book I'm missing? If every person does their own part in wanting peace, things work out.
Yes, Tinaz, there are wolves. Bloodthirsty, angry, creatures who want to see others bleed - oh wait, that's you! I'm talking about staunching the flow of blood, not opening up more.

A pity your own thirst for blood can't see that. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 9, 2008 2:40 PM:

" To: To old timer - I described my reaction to what I saw at the park as sickened. You disagree with my assessment and described my reaction as a new low. So what was the previous, presumably higher, low? I don't have a right to form an opinion about what I see? What you call "fishing" I call gathering of facts. You should try it and then maybe you could attack the message instead of the messenger, show the courage of your convictions and use your real name instead of hiding behind a bunch of fake identities. "

To TinAZ wrote on Dec 9, 2008 1:03 PM:

" Spare me your self righteousness. If you really are Special forces i would invite your attention to the motto on your crest.
If you don't understand that then the training you recieved, at the expense of the "sheep" as you refer to them, was wasted "

TinAZ wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:37 AM:

" Sheep like Teressa and Hmmm should just be content being sheep. Let the sheepdogs take care of the wolves because no matter how nice you are to them, well, the simple fact is that they are wolves. The sheepdogs carry the burden of giving you sheep a nice place in the sun, so enjoy it. I also may add, it would not be a wise idea to get rid of the sheepdogs because for the moment you cannot see any wolves in your peaceful valley. Citizen by Birth, Army Special Forces by the Grace of God. "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:27 AM:

" Teressa, I understand & agree with what you said however, why are you telling only us Americans? Like I said earlier, it takes at least 2 parties to engage in war so please, can you share your beautiful words of peace with the other party? "

To Chuck - wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:58 AM:

" Chuck said: "The protesters who met you in San Francisco are probably investment Bankers now, what has that got to do with these people in the park?" I always knew those dang hippies were were up to no good. See what they did to us? We're broke! And it's all the investment bankers' fault! Dang hippies! "

Teressa wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:52 AM:

" The lives of our men and women who have signed up for the services should NOT be used wantonly or in vain. A war that has no end is, in my opinion, wanton and in vain. If any respect has been disregaurded, it is in the policies that have allowed our military to use our sons, our daughters, our wives and husbands and children, in a war that had poor organization, inadequate armor, and even less adaquete treatment for our vetrens returning home. THAT is disrespectful to our troops, not speaking out against all of that. "

Teressa wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:50 AM:

" I hardly disrespect any soliders - they are fighting and dying - this alone commands respect. What I do disrespect is the idea that they should continue to fight - and die - for a cause that cannot be solved with further acts of violence.
No, you cannot reason with a terrorist. But you can decide that several billion dollars, 7 years, and going on 5,000 deaths (American, I'll assume most people aren't interested in Iraqi civilian numbers) is enough to realize that blood only causes blood.
We must work on finding another way, whatever that may be. "

To old timer wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:05 PM:

" I guess you have forgotten what freedom means inyour old age. Go back and read the Constitution. Palin has defined what a "real American" is and according to version you aren't it. Kurt it is one thing to disagree with the message, but another thing to take cheap shots at protestors and call them exercising their right as sickening. You have gone to a new low. How did they lie on their permit? You are fishing now. "

Old Timer wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:46 PM:

" Your City management has a serious problem with deciding what is right and wrong. You SVites should flush your toilet. Of all towns in AZ your town should not allow this liberal nonsense to prevail. "

Nida wrote on Dec 8, 2008 6:16 PM:

" Enough this is crazy,
1. He clearly stated the unfairness of the city to allow an out of town group to protest the military while not allowing residents to display their belief's. 2. He clearly stated he disagreed with the protest of veterans in "Veterans Memorial Park"
3. He clearly did not state he disagreed with their freedom of speech, just with the circumstances surrounding the protest.
Please stick to the article and try to understand another persons point of view, the protestors clearly had a chance to state their own with no interruptions. "

So wrote on Dec 8, 2008 5:31 PM:

" If you oppose war (which includes getting into other countries business, death, draining money and etc) you support terrorist and give up your right for freedom of speech?

OR

You are for the war and you dont support terrorist?

"War, that mad game the world loves to play."
— Jonathan Swift

Older men declare war. But it is youth that must fight and die ~ Herbert Hoover

"When the rich make war it's the poor that die."
— Jean-Paul Sartre

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind."
— John F. Kennedy

Just summarizing "

Active duty 22 yrs and going wrote on Dec 8, 2008 4:19 PM:

" You all have freedom to post your little whiney retorts to Kurt thanks to the vetrans. Kurt I agree, It wasn't the right way to do this. I laugh when I see them protest the very thing that allows them to protest and I laugh even further when ignorant people defend and critique your opinions and reply with rediculous interpretations of what you said. You should probably just quit reading this thing as you could spend all day just defending your own views to people who will never understand anyway. "

SOLDIER wrote on Dec 8, 2008 11:30 AM:

" Teressa, to disrespect our SM's shows how much you support the terrorist. It is a sorrow for those SMs who sacrifice but I also like to inclued the innocent lives who lose their live by your suicide bombers who you support. Why is it that your groups like to protest against the US and its allies when they're trying to help. Why not protest against those who like to kill innocent people. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 8, 2008 11:06 AM:

" To Hmmm - You keep putting words in my mouth. I never called them silly. IMHO for them to use Veterans Memorial Park is the same as if the KKK were to use Martin Luther King Jr. Parkway. Even though they lied on their permit,I accepted their right to protest in my letter. I called it sickening. Your milaege may vary. If even after I spent a quarter century serving in uniform all over the world you don't think I have the right to speak my mind and I'm not a "real American" then please define that term. "

Mark C. wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:34 AM:

" Americans exercising their liberty is never a sickening sight, even if their wrong regarding activities going on at Ft. Huachuca. What's sickening is the lack of respect and common courtesy we show toward those with whom we disagree. "

To Chuck wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:30 AM:

" The protesters who met you in San Francisco are probably investment Bankers now, what has that got to do with these people in the park? "

Im with Hmmm wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:27 AM:

" Yes wrapping themselves in the flag and quoting the bible gives them good reason to silence dissent. This conversation has gotten boring "

Hmmm wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:33 PM:

" I agree with not so. Kurt was never denied the right to protest. Where did that lady get that from??? Krut even said he wasn't denied that. He had to move because he didn't pay for the park, which makes sense. I also don't agree with the protesters message, but the fact is they had every right to do what they did. To the old lady... A real American would accept the protestors rights and not try and degrade their freedoms by calling them silly or sickening. "

Support the Troops wrote on Dec 7, 2008 7:34 PM:

" Thank you, Kurt Obermeier, for your thoughtful letter and for your service to our nation. The overwhelming majority of Americans support our military 100% and become quite upset when someone dishonors our troops in any way. The anti war crowd do not protect us or preserve our freedoms, our military men and women do. Because of your sacrifices and dedication, we all continue to live in freedom, and cannot thank you enough. We will never forget. "

Hey Not Soo wrote on Dec 7, 2008 6:34 PM:

" I'm, not an old lady (War Widow) so you're the one who needs to get a grip. Where/when did YOU serve? Unless you have papers and scars to prove that you've actually defended this country, then shut up and crawl back into the hole you came from. I get very angry at those who are out there protesting with their silly signs - especially those who have lost NOTHING and yet presume to know the sacrifice. You know NOTHING! Not the Class A's at your door, not telling your child - NOITHING, which is what you are. "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:26 AM:

" Hey Kurt people like Wow, Hmmm, Doh, Awww, etc. are just politicizing the war because they hate GWB. Now that Obama is president you will see the very same people that were once against this war support it all because their "Messiah" will continue with the very same Bush policies they have been calling a failure for the last 8 years. "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:20 AM:

" Teressa, it takes at least 2 parties to engage in a war but, the protesters only choose to voice their opinions against just 1 of those parties.
We human beings can & do live in peace with one another. The people we are fighting are not human beings, they are animals of the worst breed. They strap bombs on the backs of children & detonate them with hopes of killing more children. You can not reason with such animals & ignoring them wont make them go away. "

Not sooo wrote on Dec 7, 2008 6:40 AM:

" Kurt was never "denied the ight to counter-protest". He had to take his gang to another venue because the park was already being used. The other group paid for it, so Kurt had no business there in the first place. Now it looks like the widow can't read. Also, this protest was peaceful and no one was spitting at vehicles. Get a grip old lady. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 6, 2008 11:11 PM:

" To Thanks Kurt - In ref to peoples' inability to comprehend what they read, WowHmmmDohAwww et al have a very narrow tunnel vision view of the world. Whenever they encounter anything that doesn't fit their warped and distorted views, they simply twist it until it does. Let's be thankful there are only a few of them around. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 6, 2008 10:55 PM:

" To Thanks Kurt - I'm so sorry for your loss. John 15:13: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." There is a very small, albeit vocal, minority of americans who'se sour black hearts have been turned to stone and who have sunk so low as to be able to compare a war widow with Adolf Hitler. The sacrifice you have made for your country is second only to that of your husband. Thank you.
We'll be there the next time they show up. And everytime thereafter. See you there. "

Chuck DeLeal wrote on Dec 6, 2008 10:43 PM:

" I absolutely agree with Kurt! Also, when that idiot that is using "tired of right wing lies" instead of his name popped off and stated that no one actually spit on returning Viet Nam Veterans, You have no right to breath our air. I arrived in San Fransisco at the airport upon arriving back to the World after my first tour and was detained by the Airport Police after a confrontation with protesters who did spit and curse me while I was in uniform. 2 of them were hurt! i was released. You're a jackass. "

Get over yourselves wrote on Dec 6, 2008 10:30 PM:

" "When Facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a Bible" here it is folks "

Thanks Kurt wrote on Dec 6, 2008 7:51 PM:

" I'm the war widow that you defended. That guy who compared me with Hitler either can't read or can't comprehend what he reads. The fact that you were denied the right to counter-protest the protestors, to me, constitutes abuse of the right to protest. Quite simply, it's one sided, and that's not fair. I usually avoid these things because military family members have reported anti-war protestors spit at their vehicles and frightened their children. If, however, you counter-protest in the future, get the word out. I'll be there! "

Kyle to Teressa wrote on Dec 6, 2008 7:48 PM:

" I would like to add as a service member. I would be honored to die for my country it is an honor, and a privilage to do so. I will Support and defend the constitution of America against all enemies foriegn and domestic. That is the sole purpose of the military mam. Sometimes wars have to be fought it is inevitable. Our freedoms come with a drastic price that has be paid when neccessary. Yes it is sad but it has to happen to ensure that our children can have a better life. "

Teressa wrote on Dec 6, 2008 2:54 PM:

" Also, far be it for me to disrespect any serving member - current or past. Many who agreed with the war did join up in the spirit of their agreeal. Commendable. Many of them are now dead. I find that more sorrowful than anything else. Forgive me if I choose to not die in the sake of a cause that I do not agree with - just as those who DID die for a cause they DID agree with are given. This is, after all, America. "

Teressa wrote on Dec 6, 2008 2:51 PM:

" I rather think that if we, as humans beings, could learn how to solve our differences without violence, perhaps we wouldn't NEED to protest wars, since they'd be a thing of the past.
Idealistic, I know, and even less realistic, I know as well. But since we still have things like terrorist attacks, with luck we'll all kill each other in the ensuing mess and then BOTH sides will have what they want - peace (because we'll all be dead) and violence (because we won't have taken it lying down!) "

Cj wrote on Dec 6, 2008 1:27 PM:

" United we stand divided we fall. "

Hiding behind a fake name wrote on Dec 6, 2008 8:39 AM:

" Kurt there is a reason for anonymity, you never know what kind of self appointed savior is out there reading this tripe, or what irrational action they will take when people disagree with them. "

Live Free or Die wrote on Dec 6, 2008 8:36 AM:

" To ALL, Do you think protesters should use the U.S.S. Arizona War Memorial in Pearl Harbor as a place to rally? What is next, ARLINGTON? The rights we were given when those brave men wrote and signed the U.S. Constitution are being observed, but with complete disrespect to those who have fought and died and those brave men and women should be remembered and HONORED!!! "

Awww wrote on Dec 6, 2008 12:31 AM:

" Kurt are you for real. You are like the anti-American. Now you are all mad because people see right through you. Such is life. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 5, 2008 8:52 PM:

" To Hmmm - Oh, and as to why people displaying their first amendment rights was sickening to me, the question was asked answered. Please look down two posts previous to yours. I explained my opinion very clearly. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 5, 2008 8:45 PM:

" to Hmmm - Please explain how my letter is pushing an agenda and tell me what that agenda is. Please explain which of my actions you find sickening and disloyal to the US. Was it the counterprotesting or was it writing my letter? Please quote where I have labeled anyone as "less than american". You can't because just made that up out of thin air. I voiced my opinion in my letter and since you don't share that opinion you, a supposed vet of 20+ years, decide to attack me personally while hiding behind fake names. "

To Hmmm wrote on Dec 5, 2008 7:38 PM:

" Kurt's not pushing his agenda on people. He expressed his grevance with the fact that he wasn't able to express his views as a counter protester. Are you saying it is OK for one group to express their views and the other one can't? I'd say that is a pretty sickening view. "

To Soldier wrote on Dec 5, 2008 5:47 PM:

" Better tell Bush that, he signed the SOFA.
The Contractors will be out as soon as they can get flights, rather than be subject to Iraqi Law, that will leave our troops in a real scrape with no support services. "

SOLDIER wrote on Dec 5, 2008 8:55 AM:

" To Soldier
Perhaps you need to address the Withdrawal to the terrorists that you keep supporting who keeps bombing cities with no regards to human society. Why don't you turn your self in to the authority and tell the authority who you work for and perhaps we can stop some of their plan. "

To Doh wrote on Dec 5, 2008 7:52 AM:

" So we come home with Iraq iin the hands of the Pro iranian Shiite Government that Reagan spent hundreds of billions fighting against.
See you at the Victory Parade in Bagdad "

Doh wrote on Dec 5, 2008 5:28 AM:

" To To Soldier, the new SOFA in Iraq, is a litmus test to see if the President Elect will renege on his promise of withdrawing troops in 16 months. Awe Shucks. "

Hmmm wrote on Dec 4, 2008 11:16 PM:

" Kurt why do you want to push your agenda on the peolpe? Why were people displaying their 1st Amendment rights "sickening". I don't agree with their message either, but to label what they were doing as sickening makes me question your loyalty to the US. As a vet of 20+ years I am glad that to know people still have the right to display their views without fear. You are going against the freedoms of Americans and labeling a group of people as less than American. You're actions are the only ones that are sickening. "

To Soldier wrote on Dec 4, 2008 7:32 PM:

" Perhaps you need to address your rage to your Commander in Chief, his new Status of Forces and Withdrawal Timetable have turned Shock and Awe to Awe Shucks. "Peace with Honor" Henry Kissenger "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 4, 2008 6:57 PM:

" To John - Ok, I'll try to 'splain you: The park is named Veterans Memorial Park in honor of military veterans. Here comes a group of outsiders and lies on their application to gain exclusive use of the park so they can malign, badmouth, falsely accuse, denigrate and generally dishonor the very veterans the park was named for. Imagine the KKK organizing a march down Martin Luther King Parkway. Do they have a constitutional right to voice their opnions? Absolutely. Do I have a right to disagree and say so in public? You bet. Do you understand now? "

bob wrote on Dec 4, 2008 4:13 PM:

" The Rosenbergs disagreed. They were not unAmerican. They were however, traitors.
and:
"Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me.'"-George Orwell on WW2 protesters. "

Conservative Liberal wrote on Dec 4, 2008 1:54 PM:

" I am seeing quite a few small minded posts throughout this forum. Since when was it "un-American" to disagree? I support my troops who were ordered to the battle field. I may not support our reasons for going to Iraq, but I fully support everything that is being/should be done in Afghanistan. Lest we forget that the colonials in the 1700s did not agree with the leadership at that time. "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 4, 2008 12:25 PM:

" Confused, who's to say I wasn't there? "

To Free Thinker wrote on Dec 4, 2008 11:39 AM:

" I am over there right now. I am a vet of 20 years and guess what I AM NOT for the war. You are a putz. "

SOLDIER wrote on Dec 4, 2008 11:10 AM:

" To Teresa- Perhaps you and your gang can go to India and PROTEST to the TERRORIST who shots all those innocent people and BOMD THE HOTEL, and also go to IRAQ and PROTEST to those who's been KIDNAPPING KIDS AND TRAINING THEM TO BE A SUICIDE BOMBERS. DON'T YOU ALL CONSIDER THAT AS INHUMANE AND ISN'T THAT'S FALLS UNDER THE HUMAN RIGHTS? OPPPS! I FORGOT. YOU'RE ONE OF THEM. "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 4, 2008 9:30 AM:

" Why of coarse you don't understand John. In order for you to understand you would need to acknowledge the Bill of Rights not the Bill of Privileges. You see, people like yourself honestly believe the Bill of Rights are just privileges that only apply to people like yourselve. The rest of us are not entitled to such rights, excuse me your highness, Privileges and therefore people like Kurt need to shut up & do what were told.
Am I in the ball park with reply John?
Do you understand now? "

Ordinance wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:57 AM:

" City Ordinance paragraph 94.04 (1): "No person in a park shall utilize any park property for any commercial or political purposes, including vending, peddling or offering for sale any article or thing, or placing any stand, cart or vehicle for the transportation, sale or display thereof. If this is true, how is Art-in-the-Park allowed? On the 4th of July both the Democrates and Republicans had booths with Political info. What is wrong with our city, blatently breaking its own ordinances? "

Confused wrote on Dec 4, 2008 7:53 AM:

" To Free Thinker, if as you say, "everyone who is FOR the war is over there in combat", what are you doing here? "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 4, 2008 7:01 AM:

" To Teresa - following your logic we would all soon be living in a war zone. If we give up fighting them over there, we will soon be fighting them over here. We would soon see how loudly you would cry out for for those "with the stomach for brutality" to save you and your loved ones. No one hates war more than the soldier who has to fight it. The shame is that they have to do so with one arm tied behind their backs by you handwringers enjoying their warm safe cozy homes back here. "

John wrote on Dec 4, 2008 4:15 AM:

" I don't understand what Obermeier found sickening. It was simply people expressing their views in a legal way that is protected by the 1st Amendment. So he doesn't like the message... What did he think he would accomplish by writing this article other than to whine about other people's rights? "

BeachBum2U wrote on Dec 3, 2008 10:52 PM:

" Apparently WOW doesn't get it and never will. Proud to say I stood with many Veterans and Troop's Families as an AntiProtestor! Teressa are you suggesting Kurt has not put his life on the line? He's a Veteran for God's Sake what more do you want? I agree with Kurt about the insult of these wannabe's having use of "The Veterans Memorial Park" couldn't believe it myself! Kurt, are you kidding me the VN Mem. Wall is deemed Political by the city? How ignorant is that! "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 3, 2008 9:49 PM:

" Uhmm.. Teressa.. maybe you haven't noticed but everyone that is FOR the war is over there in combat.
They're called SOLDIERS dear LOL! And they're defending your right to look down your nose at them.
I sure would love to see your hero's Al-Quida defend you LOL! "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 3, 2008 9:46 PM:

" Uhmm.. Not Chris... You would be the first one shipped out because it is you that is opposing Kurt's Constitutional Right to protest. "

Teressa wrote on Dec 3, 2008 6:50 PM:

" Chris, I rather think we should load everyone who is FOR the war and who WANTS to send their sons and daughters into combat into the war zone. Let's not forget to send your sons and daughters into the middle of an Al-Queda stronghold, too, since this is the subject of discussion. Let's see how long YOUR stomach for brutality stands when it's your loved ones and your life on the line. "

To Wow wrote on Dec 3, 2008 6:02 PM:

" You have a gog loose in that noggin of yours. That's not what Kurt said or implied. Ask your children to read it for you. They might have better comprehension skills than you. "

Not Chris wrote on Dec 3, 2008 5:58 PM:

" I personally think that we should load everyone that opposes the Constitutional Right to Protest onto a plane and drop'em into an Al Quieda stronghold and let them see how those wonderful people crush the freedom to have demonstrations. Bet they'll be crying to be saved shortly afterwards, eh?? "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 3, 2008 5:47 PM:

" Anti-War protesters are committing the act of torture when they protest "

Free Thinker wrote on Dec 3, 2008 5:45 PM:

" To: Wow
How dare you deny Kurt his 1st Amendment rights!!
You are a tasteless person & you can take your communist manifesto back to China with the rest of your hypocrite buddies. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 3, 2008 3:50 PM:

" To wow - You are either brain dead or you can't read. From the original letter on, my story never changed one iota. You obviously can't comprehend what you are reading. Where in my letter or subsequent posts do you see where I tried to deny anyone the right to protest? Please provide the quote. The fact is that we, the counterprotesters, were denied our right to be there because the out of towners lied on their permit application and for $750.00 were given exclusive use of the park UNDER FALSE PRETENSES. Facts don't change. "

Chris wrote on Dec 3, 2008 2:57 PM:

" I personally think we should load everyone that protests the military, protests torture or any other major military issue onto a plane, drop 'em into an Al Qaeda stronghold and let them see what those wonderful people do to them when they find American "scum" in their midst. Bet they'll be crying to be saved shortly afterwards, eh? "

Wow wrote on Dec 3, 2008 10:11 AM:

" Kurt you are tasteless and your story has changed. Above you state you attempted to counter protest and then were told to leave. So you want to deny people the right to speak their mind and decide where people can or can not protest because YOU don't like it. You can take your communist manifesto back to China with the rest of your hypocrit buddies. "

To ignorance is bliss wrote on Dec 3, 2008 9:40 AM:

" I've tried and tried but can't seem to figure the point of your post. Vietnam waas a war for those of us who were getting shot at. Other than that it makes little sense "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 3, 2008 9:17 AM:

" To get back to the point of the letter: City Ordinance paragraph 94.04 (1): "No person in a park shall utilize any park property for any commercial or political purposes, including vending, peddling or offering for sale any article or thing, or placing any stand, cart or vehicle for the transportation, sale or display thereof." Despite this, a non-resident was able to rent the park and keep us out. We are the ones who were denied our rights while the protesters were given rights they did not have, at least not under our existing city ordinances. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Dec 3, 2008 7:40 AM:

" To: To Agree - We went to the park to counter protest. We were met by SVPD who told us that the protesters managed to "rent" the entire park and that we would not be allowed to be there. We left the area they "rented". How is that "abusing their freedom", "stealing their venue" and "denying them an opportunity to protest"? Your shrill over the top hysteria about events you only heard about second or third hand add nothing to your credibility. Comparing a war widow to Hitler is way beyond the pale. Have you no shame at all??? "

To Agree wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:31 PM:

" And what "Freedoms" would they had to do everything the way you and Load Toad decide. "

To Agree wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:01 PM:

" DO you realize you contradicted yourself? The protestors did not abuse anything. In fact they exercised their rights. Actually Kurt wanted to abuse their freedom by denying them an opportunity to protest in the park. Then he tried to steal their venue from them. Now he is bitter. Go back to your dungeon. Your voice reminds me of the Hitlers voice. You shreek at anything that goes against your beliefs. I do not support the protestors beliefs, but I support their rights to protest, especially when they did it legally, and paid for the venue. "

Agree wrote on Dec 2, 2008 6:36 PM:

" with Loadtoad... They name streets after liberals - "One Way." I, too, suport our military. I sometimes just shake my head knowing that my husband died to protect the freedoms these liberal loons abuse. "

General Disorder wrote on Dec 2, 2008 5:24 PM:

" If you want to protest head on over to Whetstone and stop the approval of those plats encroaching on Hubbard Assault Field. It might not be as controversial as rehashing Vietnam, but if the Fort decides it can't complete it's military mission we'll be living in a ghost town. Those Morons are more dangerous than a few Hippies. "

Gonzo wrote on Dec 2, 2008 4:39 PM:

" Wow, SV Herald Commies, looney lefts, shackles of Socialism, and even some Hip-Hop references. Lotta Hate there. It appears Catbert may have a point. "

Load Toad wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:47 AM:

" By the way, this newspaper is already there. I have never been on a website where all postings are "examined" then most are tossed away....talk about freedom of speech...YEAH RIGHT....SV Herald Commie! "

Load Toad wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:46 AM:

" Funny how the looney lefts here are saying Kurt is trying to take away freedom of speech...when in all reality, it is the left that wants it their way ONLY. (thus the reason they would not allow a counter protest) They have so many freedoms yet they continue to put most decent people in their crosshairs. Thanks MTV and this hip-hop generation....keep on keepin on, because ur steering us to the shackles of socialism. "

Michelle wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:40 AM:

" Reading through this rambling mess reminds me of exactly why I left Sierra Vista and plan to never live in a small town again. Too many people have small minds and live in an even smaller bubble. I cannot get over how one little letter about the parks poor practices turned into a three ring circus. Get off of Kurts back, not that he needs my support as he can clearly handle this himself. I support our military! "

ignorance is bliss wrote on Dec 2, 2008 8:42 AM:

" Vietnam was technically a military action, not a war. Reading this post confirms for me how our education system has failed. People can no longer read an article and extract from it the main point. They read what they want to hear, and then they attack for no other reason than to make themselves feel superior. No longer can people seperate fiction from truth. History apparently has no relavance and people today are too lazy to go a library and look anything up. And it is noy just Sierra Vista. "

Hey Kurt wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:33 AM:

" I totally understand what you are saying in this letter. What I DON'T understand, is that these locals are supporting the protestors and not a Vet. It should also be within my freedom of speech to say those protestors are traitors and a shame. And so are these posters backing up their right to speak. "

HehA wrote on Dec 2, 2008 2:57 AM:

" America should be about anti war protesters protesting at a veterans memorial. And, the veterans seeing the beauty in that, but then of course we never tortured anybody because torture is a term defined by humans, who often change the definitions of their words to suit their political views. "

Chris S. wrote on Dec 1, 2008 2:34 PM:

" You've apparently not lived in this city long enough to know that asinine things that our local government approves and doesn't. It's a sham. "

Was Park Closed wrote on Dec 1, 2008 9:55 AM:

" Was the park closed to all as some are insinuating, or was the park closed to another organized protest group? Big difference in that. If the KKK we holding a rally, do you think La Raza or the Black Panthers would be issued a permit to counter protest on the same day? "

Dan wrote on Dec 1, 2008 12:02 AM:

" How is it that only a few seem to get the point of what this letter was about? Is it something in the water making Sierra Vista's people stupid? Maybe the herald should write a story on that. It could not be any clearear that he disagrees with how people in charge of the park say they will not let the park be used for any political purposes, the they let these protesters use it for a lahf a day. WOW! how did this turn into an argument about the first ammendment? "

Dan wrote on Nov 30, 2008 11:57 PM:

" OH MY GOD! I am rolling in my chair laughing, trying to logically speak about anything with the average Sierra Vistan is harder than teaching my cat how to write, except my cat would actually learn how to write first. I am sure this guy made it clear that he disagrees with how the people in charge of the park pressumably disagree with the use of the park for political purposes, yet they let this group rent it out? don't you see anything wrong with that picture? that's what a GED will do to you. "

To an assortment wrote on Nov 30, 2008 11:11 PM:

" Furious Kitten, another anecdote. To The Last Few, you seem incapable of understanding that history requires more than "I read it in a book." You are thinking sloppily to the end -- which is right here. "

Celia wrote on Nov 30, 2008 9:44 PM:

" Someone may have been spat on but I haven't heard that from a single Viet Nam vet that I've known or my from my father who also was also a Viet Nam vet. It was an unpopular war as is the war in Irag so what else is new?
The protest was legal, they got a permit, that's what free speech is about so get over it and learn to live and enjoy life and stop whining and support our active duty troops by caring enough to continue to ask "why?". "

Gonzo wrote on Nov 30, 2008 9:41 PM:

" So how is the fact that some Vietnam Vets got spit on relevent to the protests here? Those "Protesters" are probably New York Stock Brokers now.
That war is gone, and "Communist " Vietnam is our trading partner. Time to move on "

To The Last Few wrote on Nov 30, 2008 6:47 PM:

" It's my experience that most people on here that spout things from the extreme left and right postions are simply lazy. They hear something or read something from their left or right wing blogs and convince themselves that what they are hearing is the gospel truth. Most are too narrow minded to do research on their own. Nothing is black and white; right or left; right or wrong. But to a wing-head everything is clear cut and dry and if you disagree you are worse than scum you are an extremist from the other side. "

To The Last Few wrote on Nov 30, 2008 6:36 PM:

" The summary I provided was from the "1978" reference I provided you with. Again you can read it at your leisure. The stories have persisted because they are true. They are told over and over by those who experienced the slight. They are recorded in the history books. I'm supposed to believe that you heard Nixon first hand. Well I don't. You'll have to do better than that. Show me a news article, video clip or transcript of a speech. I heard him doesn't cut it. Go to the Library, it's full of historical accounts about the Anti-war movement. "

Independent wrote on Nov 30, 2008 6:22 PM:

" Why doesn't the city forget the "big brother" routine and allow any type of event in the park (which we paid for regardless of political orientation) but focus on damage to the park and safety as a consideration? The permit could be issued with bonds for damage and the requirement that the applicant provide approved security. Why should my park be used only if someone at city hall thinks my views are "politically acceptable". Viet Nam? Darn right they should have been allowed. Who made that call? Based on? "

Furious Kitten wrote on Nov 30, 2008 5:26 PM:

" Hey Tired of right-wing lies...no-one spit on the Vietnam Vets...it was all right-wing propaganda? Some protesters spit on his father right in front of him when his father had just come back. So there were indeed eyewitnesses not just someone who heard it from someone else. To this day my husband remembers that incident vividly and it still makes his blood boil. So maybe you had better just quit talking while you can. "

To To To To... wrote on Nov 30, 2008 2:19 PM:

" Sorry, I made a mistake in subtraction. The war ended about 35 years ago, not 45. I don't think this weakens the point: that "proof" of events so long ago is provided by anonymous, undated statements, or by statements that were clearly made about 35 years after the fact. Or, in layman's language: anecdotes told around the bar at the American Legion post, ain't acceptable historical evidence. "

To To To To... wrote on Nov 30, 2008 2:06 PM:

" You offer only general histories, one unattributed quote, and one comment that's undated but didn't appear in print until about 45 years after Vietnam ended. That's not evidence worthy of the name. I don't know if Nixon was the first to make up the lie, but I know he repeated it; I heard him. That's a first-person account. Read some history, learn something about standards of proof, and tell if you would so much as buy a car based on the garbage statements that you trust in this important matter. "

with Confused wrote on Nov 30, 2008 11:56 AM:

" I agree with confused, I was never harassed coming back from Vietnam, either time. So how are the actions of some radicals 40 years ago attributable to these demonstrators today? "

UCMJ wrote on Nov 30, 2008 11:52 AM:

" To UCMJ, three Officers and one NCO have in past wars been convicted for the use of Waterboarding alone. As for the Geneva Conventions we do not treat detainees as POWs. If we did give them POW Status there would be no need for hearings until the war is over. "

Hey wrote on Nov 30, 2008 10:04 AM:

" To brian: I agree that it is government or city controlled. I would expect it to be. Most if not all public parks are controlled by the government. But the government maintains that land for the public to enjoy. If it's true, how is it that a group can have exclusive rights to a park? That would insinuate that it is a private park, not a public park. It also appears that the city violated their own statute (Statute 94.04-C1) unless they changed it in the last few months. Is there government oversight to review the Parks & Leisure decision? "

Doh wrote on Nov 30, 2008 9:45 AM:

" Only the military is covered under UCMJ. If you are looking for someone to protest for using methods that are questionable you can start by protesting outside the offices at Langley, VA. They're not being tought those tricks here at Fort Huachuca. "

brian wrote on Nov 30, 2008 8:58 AM:

" To Hey Teddy: The park is not public in the sense you think it is. IN reality it is a government park, thus they make the rules and dictate use of the park. If it were truly "public" in the sense most people think, then there would be no fees and any group could use it. "Public" is just a nice way of saying government controlled. "

UCMJ Actions wrote on Nov 30, 2008 6:33 AM:

" While they are definitely in the minority, there are cases of US military personnel being tried and convicted of murder, torture, fragging, and other war atrocities on the record. There were probably numerous unreported abuses of prisoners being interrogated by contractor/Gov-non-military and military personnel with questionable means. The Geneva convention is there for our troop's protection as well as the enemy's protection. Now with that said, I don't think Ft Huachuca teaches these methods, but they were learned and used by someone over there even if in limited numbers. "

To To To The Last Few wrote on Nov 29, 2008 11:09 PM:

" To summarize: The leaders of the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), who organized many of the early protests, were subordinated by new leaders who "became increasingly strident, greeting returning soldiers with jeers and taunts, spitting on troops in airports and on public streets. A unique situation arose in which most Americans supported the cause but opposed the leaders, methods, and culture of protest." I did my homework, how about you? Show me proof that Nixon started these rumors. You can't; it's left-wing propaganda! The only propaganda I parroted was yours. I only changed the spectrum from right to left. "

To To To The Last Few wrote on Nov 29, 2008 10:56 PM:

" The Anti-War movement is well documented in history books and documentaries. You can read them at your leisure.
•DeBenedetti, Charles. An American Ordeal: The Antiwar Movement of the Vietnam Era. Syracuse, NY: Syracuse University Press, 1990.
•Garfinkle, Adam. Telltale Hearts: The Origins and Impact of the Vietnam Antiwar Movement. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1995.
•Halstead, Fred. Out Now! A Participant's Account of the American Movement Against the Vietnam War. New York: Monad Press, 1978.
•Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War: A Political, Social, and Military History. Ed. Spencer C. Tucker. Oxford, UK: ABC-CLIO, 1998. "

To To To The Last Few wrote on Nov 29, 2008 10:46 PM:

" I provided recent videos of anti-war protesters doing the same to Iraqi war veterans. You said it doesn't happen. NYT recorded that it does. You can also read the links below. It describes a native Indian’s experience when he came home "I was spit on and called a baby-killer in the mainstream culture when I first came home..."; Sr MSG Sonny Cannon "was spit on three times while riding the cable cars in San Francisco simply because he was in uniform." It's also a major reason why California added protection to service members under hate-crime laws.
http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/ncmain/ncdocs/fact_shts/fs_native_vets.html
http://www.defendamerica.mil/awt/jun2002/awt061802a.html
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/asm/ab_0151-0200/ab_187_cfa_20030423_100839_asm_comm.html "

To To The Last Few wrote on Nov 29, 2008 8:15 PM:

" You say Vietnam spitting happened, so you have to prove your claim. All you have to do is come up with one piece of hard evidence. You can't. Instead, you give links to a video about Iraq, 40 years after Vietnam. The more you spout & shout, the worse your case looks. Stop parroting right wing propaganda, start questioning it. If you wouldn't buy a used car from Nixon, why would you believe his lies about big things? "

Whoa wrote on Nov 29, 2008 8:11 PM:

" Kurt you now say you wanted to share??? They paid for it. Again do you want me to "share" your dinner at McDonalds with you? Get real. You have shown your a bozo clown with an anti-constitutional agenda who wants to say where people can and can't protest. You are just like the voice of Red China in 1989, except you lack the authority to push your agenda. "

Confused wrote on Nov 29, 2008 5:00 PM:

" Are those the same people who were protesting here or are you visiting someone elses misconduct on them? I returned through Oakland Army Base from Vietnam three times, each time I went to SFO and flew home, I never saw a protester "

To The Last Few wrote on Nov 29, 2008 12:47 PM:

" Would you like another example of anti-war protesters spitting on Iraqi war veterans? Just for asking questions to anti-war protesters in Santa Barbara. Is a video good enough proof for you? Now is it so difficult to see those protesters who were much more beligerant to our war veterans during the Vietnam war calling them "baby-killers" and spitting on them. Again go look it up in the archives at the library. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zja97pocN8U "

To The Last Few wrote on Nov 29, 2008 12:36 PM:

" You can't dispute it didn't happen, you can only dispute that you never heard about it happening from your aquantences. You won't find the anti war protests from the 60s and 70s on the internet. You'd have to go to a library and research through microfiche to find reports of Anti-War protests back then. You can do your own research. If you want a more recent report you can go to New York Times. They report protesters spitting at an Iraqi Vet during a proetest in DC. The videos of that protest show a pretty nasty group of people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/washington/28protest.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5090&en=f1fcbb4f7b6e2453&ex=1327640400&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss "

To The Last Few wrote on Nov 29, 2008 12:21 PM:

" Where's your proof that Nixon-Agnew started that rumor...that's right you don't have proof. You show nothing more than rumor and innuendo. Your position is all posing. No wonder you get so belligerent, you don't have proof for the left wing trash you spout. Sorry game over. "

rhonda wrote on Nov 29, 2008 11:45 AM:

" Yes, that should not be allowed...do it their own front yard where-ever they live!!! A park is a happy place, a place to relax and enjoy all it offers. "What was this"??? Just awful.
Im not from here and cant believe what I saw in a park. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 29, 2008 10:07 AM:

" To Whoa - The venue should not be for sale in the first place. We didn't want to "steal" it, only to share it. We didn't quit. There were counter protesters at the park entrance. When our group left the park, we counter protested at the main gate until our visitors slunk away returning from whence they came. Far from being embarassed, I will proudly be there again next year and you can once again take your anonymous shots at me. For evil to triumph only requires that good men do nothing - Burke. "

To The Last Few wrote on Nov 29, 2008 8:02 AM:

" News Flash, you don't say any actual spitting occurred. To Tired, you don't actually produce any examples either. His Bias, that's a great bunch of straw men you set up to argue about. Not one of you showed anything more than rumor and innuendo. Your position is all posing. No wonder you get so belligerent, you don't have proof for the right-wing trash you spout. Three strikes, you're all out. "

Whoa wrote on Nov 29, 2008 12:15 AM:

" Kurt wasn't denied the right to counter protest. Kurt was denied the use of a venue that someone elese had paid for. Let's get that straight. If Kurt would have been on his game he could have filed to co-use or something like that. Instead Kurt decided to show up and try and steal a venue that someone else bught. Kurt could have stood outside the park, but he quit instead. Kurt is bitter because he got outplayed by a group he detests. Now Kurt embarrases himself in front of God and country with this letter. Sore looser! "

His Bias is apparent wrote on Nov 28, 2008 6:48 PM:

" To "tired of right-wing lies", you sound like someone who doesn't believe the Holocaust happened because you weren't there or no one you know told you any of the stories. You probably believe that the government planned the 9-11 attack because someone who was in NY told you so or you read it in a left-wing blog. I guess we can all discredit the theory that the right wing controls the gas prices. They didn't seem to control the prices before the election. Please, tell us more of your theories. This makes for good entertainment. "

To Tired wrote on Nov 28, 2008 6:23 PM:

" You apparently didn't go to Vietnam since you so blaringly delete that info from your response to News Flash. Anti-war protesters are vile and obscene and treated our soldiers with disrespect. The term baby-killer was used shortly after the TET offensive. (LBJ was president) It was attributed to Ron Kovic. There are plenty of Vietnam soldiers that tell of their experience when they returned from War (do your own research). Even today our war vets receive rude treatment from anti-war protesters. There's no "right-wing conspiracy"; that's ludicrous. Don't call Obama a boneheaded boob!
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/pdf/Archive/Soc/soc.history.war.misc/2006-12/msg00007.pdf
http://media.www.siude.com/media/storage/paper1096/news/2008/11/13/News/Vietnam.Veteran.Tells.Tales.Of.Survival-3540353.shtml
http://www.texnews.com/1998/local/tet0201.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzXzid9vJCI "

News Flash wrote on Nov 28, 2008 5:17 PM:

" I served 20 years, why do you ask? What did I lose please tell? You only need to search the web to see video tapes of anti-war protesters cursing and degrading war veterans today. I have no objection to their protests; I do object that they verbally assault soldiers and their families. Spitting is a form of physical assault. I'm happy you never experienced any verbal or physical abuse from anti-war protesters. That's good, not everyone has. But there are plenty who have. Don't discount their stories because it didn't happen to you. "

Let it go wrote on Nov 28, 2008 4:33 PM:

" The protestors showed a complete lack of class in using Veteran's Memorial park as a staging area, since they were protesting the very people who grant them the right to protest... it's no surprise. I doubt parks and leisure had much latitude in allowing them to use the park. If they were denied then they would've had a story. As it was, there was a two-second blurb on the news and all their effort and money was forgotten. Next year, how about jacking up the prices on everything in Sierra Vista on the day they come to visit. "

To News Flash -- wrote on Nov 28, 2008 12:18 PM:

" -- Tired of right-wing lies here, speaking to News Flash. I was on active the better part of 10 years, from the mid 60s into the 70s. Did you serve at all? Nobody ever told me any 'spitting' stories at the time. It was always, somebody heard somebody said. So I was there, you were not. You lose. "

News Flash wrote on Nov 28, 2008 11:19 AM:

" To "Tired of right-wing lies", when was the last time you spoke to a Vietnam Veteran about this subject? Why do you think this is a right-wing lie? Are you saying that our Veterans are right-wingers? You really don't have a clue do you? Based on your "right-wing" comment, are you getting your talking points from some "left-wing" blog? Grow up, you get some courage and go the VFW and talk to the veterans there and get their take on what it was like when they served during the mid 60s to early 70s. Ask them what protesters did. "

Hey Teddy wrote on Nov 28, 2008 11:10 AM:

" Veteran's Memorial Park is a public park. How is it that a group can have exclusive rights to a park? That would insinuate that it is a private park. The city is wrong for giving exclusive rights to a group. Taxpayers pay for the upkeep of that park. To rent it out as private property is WRONG! If the city banned political gatherings at the park last year why did they allow exclusive rights to the park for this political gathering? Statute 94.04-C1 says: “No person in a park shall utilize any park property for any commercial of political purposes..." "

To Tired wrote on Nov 28, 2008 10:49 AM:

" Don't belittle the veterans because they were above the dirt that the hippie generation dished out. Did you expect some soldier to bash a woman upside the head for spitting at him? It wasn't isolated at airports it also happened at protests outside bases like the one we recently had. Even those protesters spat on vehicles driving by as they entered the post. When war protesters get together they are a pretty ugly lot. I haven't seen one where they haven't spouted obscenities, hatred and degrade the soldiers that serve. "

Meet in the Parking Lot After Dark wrote on Nov 28, 2008 4:55 AM:

" Just meet up in the parking lot after dark and discuss it like we did in the old days. "

Tired of right-wing lies wrote on Nov 27, 2008 10:42 PM:

" It is absolute baloney that returning veterans were spit on. Can you imagine what would have happened to some hippie who tried that to somebody back from combat? What happened was that people like Nixon and Agnew, and more criminals like them, kept saying that this was happening, and boneheaded boobs fell for the lie, and have been repeating it ever since. Grow some real courage, face the truth, and stop lying about people you disagree with. "

Teddy wrote on Nov 27, 2008 10:17 PM:

" Hey Kurt I see where you state that the protestors "paid for exclusive use of the park". Then you state you wanted to infringe on a private setting by staging your own protest. That would be like me sitting next to you in McDonalds and eating your fries. They paid ofr it, so it is theirs. You wanting to stage a counter protest would be like stealing. You can counter protest somewhere else or pay for a multi-use for the park. Didn't your service time teach you better? "

Kurt is right wrote on Nov 27, 2008 3:49 PM:

" A calm re-reading of this letter shows that Kurt is right! He supports the right to free speech and assembly, even when the point of view is not his. He further states that he may want to exercise his rights to counter-protest.
It is healthy to have opposing viewpoints.
Hopefully, the City will allow all interested parties in the future to have their day in an appropriate venue and with appropriate restrictions.
Thank you, Kurt, for your service to our country and your letter. "

Whats your point wrote on Nov 27, 2008 3:39 PM:

" To Another Veteran, so what you are saying, because there are individuals to were involved with atrocities in Vietnam that justified people condemning all Vietnam Veterans for those isolated atrocities? As I recall LT Calley was court martialed and convicted of his war crimes. Why would you insinuate that people had the right to spit on soldiers not involved in those crimes. You are hardly better than those who indiscriminately spit on returning veterans. "

Another Veteran wrote on Nov 27, 2008 12:41 PM:

" Kurt Obermeier, what are you thinking? After denying that your letter said a lot of things that it said, now you've dragged in Vietnam, and criticized people saying that war crimes were committed there too. Between the air and the bone, what is in your head? Do you remember Lieutenant Calley? Probably not. "

Citizen wrote on Nov 27, 2008 11:03 AM:

" Those of you who are attacking Kurt don't get it. He's upset because he was denied the right to counter protest because the protesters were given exclusive rights to a public venue or a public park. Anyone who felt that their side or opinion or protest should be heard was restricted from doing so. Where is the freedom of speech in that folks? Why is it OK for one group to protest and not allow another group to protest? Why do you former Army, Veterans and military have an issue with Kurt expressing his displeasure with that? Shame on you. "

Gonzo wrote on Nov 27, 2008 8:28 AM:

" It is obvious that MR Obermeier feels that his service entitles him to decide what the rest of us can believe. Not a valid opinion in a place where almost everyone is either in the Army or Retired from it. "

LS wrote on Nov 27, 2008 8:21 AM:

" Kurt,
Looks like a double standard at Parks and Leisure. Do as I say, not as I do. "

Ban use of the Park wrote on Nov 27, 2008 1:41 AM:

" Let's make it simple, Ban usage of all public parks so no one can use them. Parade down mainstreet at your own peril. Arrest anyone carrying a sign, and charge them with disorderly conduct. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 26, 2008 10:51 PM:

" I'll be there again next year. And every year thereafter. I will be with those who think it's important to show the troops, their families that there are those of us who will stand up and speak up for them. Like the protestors, we will exercise our right to be there. When our soldiers returned from Vietnam, I'll bet they would like to have seen some counter demonstrators as they were being spat at and accused of committing war crimes by people who didn't have a clue, only an agenda. Never again. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 26, 2008 10:30 PM:

" I don't know how to make this any more clear. I respect their right to their opinion and their right to protest and said so clearly. How anyone can twist this to mean the opposite is beyond me. The words are right there. As brian pointed out, my objection was the venue. The personal attacks from people who hide their identity was to be expected and comes with the territory. "

Oh Kurt wrote on Nov 26, 2008 9:59 PM:

" Kurt you are very angry. Why are you disturbed by people expressing their freedom where they want? As a retiree you should know your services defended and protected the ability of these protestors to do exactly what they did. You are an irony all of your own. Wow. "

Furious Kitten wrote on Nov 26, 2008 7:27 PM:

" I can hardly believe what I am reading! Why weren't more people offended by this? Well, as a sister of retired Navy personnel I would love to be at a counter protest! I'm sick and tired of standing by silently while those yahoos get to have their say. It's time for our voices to be heard and drown out those others. Just say when and where and if at all possible I'll be there loud and proud. A big thanks to all those who have served this country. Where would we be without you? "

I hate stupid people wrote on Nov 26, 2008 1:52 PM:

" Some of you people cant read, or dont have a good grasp of english. You see somthing that makes you think a little and then your brain just seems to shut down and assume some off the wall story that you just made up on the spot. He was saying its crap that we couldnt protest the protesters. To quote "The aftermath supposedly had Parks and Leisure Services revamping the rules to disallow use of the park for political purposes." Then after that these protesters get the permit to further their political agenda. READ before you jump to conclusions. "

To Another Veteran wrote on Nov 26, 2008 1:32 PM:

" Where have you been the past year. When did deeds that the CIA use translate to being part of what the Army Veterans do? The US Army and Fort Huachuca TRADOC training school does not condone or teach torture techniques. The feds you are speaking of are the CIA agents and the contractors they hire that utilize those water boarding techniques. Shame on you, as a former veteran, for not understanding the federal government organizational structure. "

To K. O. wrote on Nov 26, 2008 11:45 AM:

" Having followed your letters to the editor for some years, my take on you is that you are someone who thinks it is a violation of YOUR rights for someone else, or some other group, to exercise THEIR rights in a way you disagree with. You have a very distorted sense of what the U.S. Constitution guarantees. It's called Equal Protection and it means that YOUR point of view is NOT the only "correct" point of view. "

brian wrote on Nov 26, 2008 8:45 AM:

" amazing, the letter was aginst the venue not the message. apparently folks around here have to attack the messanger rather than argue the topic. Dismiss your detractors Kurt, you are right. "

The right to counter-protest wrote on Nov 26, 2008 8:36 AM:

" It's true that everyone has a right to protest and speak anything that's on their mind. However, the first amendment does NOT protect people from getting ridiculed by other people expressing THEIR first amendment rights to speak their mind. Don't accuse people of trying to suppress the protester's right to free speech. They're fulfilling a duty to express the second side of an issue. "

Cheiu Hoi wrote on Nov 26, 2008 8:15 AM:

" No, the POINT is, in this country people can protest whatever kookie cause they choose to or make whatever symbolic connection they want. For you to want to deny them, or anyone, that right is the real problem. "

Oh Kurt wrote on Nov 26, 2008 7:41 AM:

" You still want to restrict someone's freedom and are very bitter. I think your anger disgraces what the people in uniform stand for. Is there a more symbolic place that they could have done this in Sierra Vista? It was a good move on their part, even though I disagree with their message. People like you give them more publicity and actually add to their cause. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 25, 2008 10:00 PM:

" To Another Veteran - The point is that torture is not taught at Ft Huachuca. The CIA, some contractors and maybe a bad apple or two in uniform may have acted illegaly, but they weren't taught to do that at Ft Huachuca. The DMV issues drivers licenses, so are you going to protest at the the DMV every time a drunk causes an accident? "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 25, 2008 9:53 PM:

" Before anyone else accuses me of wanting to deny anyone's right to protest let me once again make clear: I never once said they had no right to protest. On the contrary, I specifically pointed out their right to do so. The purpose of my letter was to object to giving them exclusive rights to the VETERANS MEMORIAL PARK for the purpose of maligning the very veterans the park is named for. Is this plain enough english? "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 25, 2008 9:45 PM:

" To "To Kurt" Please read my letter. Tell me where it says I want to deny them the right to protest. I quote myself: While I agree with the protesters’ right to voice their opinions, I strongly disagree with giving them as a venue the park named for the very people these protesters so vehemently accuse, revile and despise."
Shame on you for being to stupid to understand what you are reading. Jeez! "

Watcher wrote on Nov 25, 2008 7:50 PM:

" It starts with the media, the Herald/our local newspaper published when the stinking protesters were going to be protesting. They should just have ingored this, as they do many times as in followup stories, or stories that aren't favorable to their advertisers. "

To Kurt wrote on Nov 25, 2008 7:50 PM:

" These people were exercising their 1st amendment rights. Why are you so against people displaying their rights? As a retired military member myself, even though I don't support their message, I am proud that they were able to stand up for what they believe without fear of their government. You do realize this isn't a communist block nation correct? Shame on you for trying to supress someone's rights. "

Another veteran -- wrote on Nov 25, 2008 6:41 PM:

" -- what appalls me is that the feds have admitted torture. How can you deny it after the feds admit it? "

Free Thinker wrote on Nov 25, 2008 6:04 PM:

" Ain't this a sight to see. Everyone here defending the 1st Amendment right of anti-military protesters while denying that same Constitutional right to a man that sacrifices his very life to protect that very same right.
What an enormous bunch of hypocrites we have here. I would love to see just 1 of those anti-military protesters protect your freedoms.
Don't hold your breathe on that happening! "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 25, 2008 4:34 PM:

" To the anonymous writer who so "strongly" disagrees with me: You didn't read my letter or you don't understand what you read. I very clearly agreed with their right to their opinion and their right to protest. You may untwist your undies now.
To Arthur: Ditto. Contrary to your accusation, I never claimed to be anyone's guardian or to speak for anyone but myself. I will continue to do so. I never denied their right to protest. Learn to read. You too may now get the twist out of your knickers. Words mean things. "

Arthur Dent wrote on Nov 25, 2008 1:30 PM:

" Another Veteran here, Sticks and Stones said it well, everyone does not agree with you ,and those who do not, have a right to stage thier protest. appointing yourself the guardian of our opinions does not make you one. "

I dont support them either wrote on Nov 25, 2008 12:27 PM:

" and so I stayed away from the area that day. They weren't worth my time and I didn't want to validate their message by my presence. They are looking for publicity - if no one acknowledges them, they loose. Next year, why don't we ALL just ignore them? "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 25, 2008 9:50 AM:

" To Ignore them - I understand the easy thing would be to simply ignore them, but I don't think they'll go away. To allow them to make these accusations and go unchallenged just rubs me wrong. It would also send a message to our young troops that we as vets don't care anymore. So I'll be there next time as much for them and their families as for myself. The Army was my life for far too long and it is still in my blood. This is one way I feel I can still support the troops. "

Kurt Obermeier wrote on Nov 25, 2008 9:40 AM:

" To Sticks Stones - If you had ever read Thoreau you would never ask such a stupid question. The only one mentioning violence is you. I simply disagree with allowing a group of people, mostly from out of state, to use our Veterans Memorial Park to accuse veterans of crimes. They could have been given permission to use any of our other parks instead. If you disagree, fine. Next time sign your real name. "

does a falling tree make sound... wrote on Nov 25, 2008 8:34 AM:

" if no one is in the forest? "

To Kurt wrote on Nov 25, 2008 8:13 AM:

" As a retired military vet myself, I strongly disagree with you! As a military member you must understand that you serve to protect freedoms. So you didn't agree with their cause, neither did I. However, I am extremely proud to see people free to express their civil liberties despite my personal feeling towards their message. Would you rather live in an authoritative state where people would be killed for expressing their views and opinions? You need to go back and right the Bill of Rights. You should know better. "

Sticks Stones wrote on Nov 25, 2008 7:40 AM:

" I too am a retired Army Veteran. I learned something before the Army that Mr. Obermeier never did. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words may never hurt me". Hey, get over yourself. If you were on top of it, you would have rented out the park. As I see it the city was very wise to allow only one protest group to be in the park at a time. Next year, you can rent the park. By the way, are you implying that violence is how you might handle a meeting between groups next time?? "

Ignore them wrote on Nov 25, 2008 7:00 AM:

" Kurt, thanks for your service. As a veteran I too have problems with people trying to belittle veterans and active duty military as a means of showing opposition to political policies whether true or false. The point is, they are such a small minority that if we all ignore them, they will hopefully go away. Since their purpose is to incite and gather attention, all that the counterprotesting will do is create more publicity for them. Do you really think your demonstration will change their minds? Why assist them? "