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Motorcycle group banned from bar, veterans post after brawl

By Bill Hess
Herald/Review
Published/Last Modified on Friday, Oct 10, 2008 - 09:46:27 am MST

TOMBSTONE — A group of motorcyclists has been banned from a couple of establishments in this Old West town after disrupting the community last weekend.

And the Tombstone Marshal’s Office is investigating the incident and considering pursuing charges.

Members of the Legacy Riders, a group made up primarily of sons of Vietnam War veterans and some younger veterans, are accused of starting a bar brawl about 11:30 p.m. on Saturday night in the Crystal Palace Saloon on historic Allen Street.

R.J. Herrig, one of the owners of the bar, said the incident looked like a “bad biker gang movie.” The saloon is one of the establishments to ban the Legacy Riders.


R.J. Herrig, co-owner of Crystal Palace Saloon in Tombstone, describes the events leading to the severe beating of two men by the Legacy Riders motorcycle club last Saturday night. (Ed Honda-Herald/Review)


Two local men in their early 20s who were standing at the bar talking with the waitresses were victims of the fight, Herrig said.

In the saloon’s second-floor office, he showed security video of the incident. The footage shows the fight from three different angles.

Panning on the two young men, whom Tombstone Marshal M.J. Smith identified as Michael Molina and Richard Ramirez, Herrig pointed out a member of the Legacy Riders who was watching the duo.

The unidentified biker eventually walked up to the pair and a conversation began. What was said could not be heard because the system does not record sound.

One of the victims is seen lowering his head and cupping an ear in his hand as if he was trying to hear what the biker was saying when the assailant struck out at the younger man, hitting him in the side of the face knocking him to the floor.

“He was cold-cocked,” Herrig said before showing the video.

In no time, other bikers began to gather around the pair as fists flew, driving the other victim to the floor. Soon they were being kicked and stomped on. “There were 20 to 30 people beating them,” Herrig said.

Molina and Ramirez were dragged out of the bar as the confrontation spilled over on to Allen Street. As members of the biker group left the establishment, they pushed aside an elderly patron and were hitting women, Herrig said.

Members of the Cochise Ghost Riders, another motorcycle group, tried to help the two victims, but they too were overwhelmed, he said.

In the six years he, his mother Kim, and another person have owned the Crystal Palace Saloon, there has never been such a fight in the establishment, Herrig said. “We should have known something  might have happened, because there was a small fight Friday night (in the bar),” Herrig remarked, adding that incident also included Legacy Riders.

Kim Herrig said she was concerned about  the men being beaten. They have always been polite customers. As the two were being dragged outside the establishment, one of them grabbed on to the front door, trying to stop being taken out of the bar, according to what was seen on the video taken by one of the security cameras. The two victims are not bikers.

The bar’s security man could not stop the event because of the group’s size, R.J. Herrig said. When his mother went outside, she saw one of the beaten young men prone in the street, “and I thought Danny was dead,” Kim Herrig said. She said she called out for someone to call 9-1-1 after seeing the man wasn’t moving and that there was a lot of blood. Ramirez and Molina were taken to a hospital in Tucson, where they were treated and released the next day.

Kim Herrig said during Helldorado Days, which is Oct. 17-19, there are many biker clubs that come to Tombstone, and they are usually well behaved.

The Herrigs said they are bothered that it appears the Marshal’s Office was delayed in responding and that no arrests were immediately made.

Smith said the two deputy marshals who went to the scene knew the best thing to do was to diffuse the situation and not start arresting people immediately. Another man, whom the marshal said he only had a first name of “Justin,” was hit in the face by a folding baton. Although that man declined medical treatment, he will have to have some facial surgery.

Although he has the names of two Tucson men who allegedly assaulted the local residents, Smith said the investigation is continuing and charges of rioting, aggravated assault and other criminal citations are pending. All the hotels and motels in Tombstone have been asked to provide guest lists of those who were from the group, the Tombstone marshal said. The Herald/Review was unable to locate a point of contact for the group

Based on information he has already obtained from other jurisdictions, Smith said this group of Legacy Riders have been banned from some bars in Yuma, and the American Legion post’s officers in Tombstone voted Wednesday to ban the group.

Jeff Sweet, the bar manager of American Legion Post 24 in Tombstone, said the bikers had been in the veterans’ service organization facility in conjunction with a Vietnam veterans group and caused problems last week. The marshal said there will be extra security during Helldorado Days.

R.J. Herrig said the biker group’s sergeant-at-arms failed in his oversight responsibilities and even justified what happened Saturday night in the Crystal Palace Saloon by saying the bikers are all brothers and had to protect one another. “Thirty against two isn’t protecting one another. That was disgusting,” he said.

Herald/Review senior reporter Bill Hess can be reached at 515-4615 or at bill.hess@svherald.com.



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    Too Many Idiots Posting wrote on Feb 23, 2009 3:34 AM:

    " Post after post refers to the Legacy Riders. It's been made clear many times that the news article incorrectly called then Legacy Riders.
    There are folks posting that CANNOT read, but seem to communicate (poorly) via the written word.
    There are NO CHILDREN of vets in the club. All members are active duty or veterans. "

    Bam wrote on Nov 14, 2008 10:28 AM:

    " Without knowing the particulars of the situation, I feel we all are un-able to pass judgement. I do think a one on one fight is a fair fight, and do not think a group on two is fair. I've lived the biker lifestyle for 30 years now, and have never participated in such an event, and believe a brother should help and protect another brother. But,without coming to any conclusions, I do feel "gang beatings" happen because Men are too Chicken to fight by themselves, and it is the Clubs Officers responsibility to speak publically about the incident. Manup!! "

    What wrote on Oct 28, 2008 3:35 PM:

    " SV mom - "children"? The event was in a BAR. When your kids are 21 are you going to tell them where they can/cannot go? "

    Riders wrote on Oct 25, 2008 10:49 AM:

    " Elite, please answer this question. Why do you think they would ban a motorcycle ministry from the American Legion?
    Poor reporting has labled this group as "children" of vets. The reporting is false. ALL members have a DD214. "

    SV Mom wrote on Oct 24, 2008 2:01 PM:

    " I'm tired of hearing about this, certain biker's and their women disgust me. Why would any so called "MOTHER" leave the child to be with these greasy, longhaired men. I have been raising 2 children for 12 years because their so called mother thinks the biker life is great. I'm not saying that all biker's are bad. I'm simply saying the life on the back of a motorcycle is bad. Drinking, drugs, fights and being a theif is a not a good life for a so called mother with 2 teenagers, and you know who you are!!! "

    THS Alum wrote on Oct 24, 2008 12:52 PM:

    " 3) It's sad when an event like this happens and justification is attempted in the words "mess with one mess with all." I've been a been a member of many organizations, and from my knowledge, if a fight is one on one, it is controlled by the bigger group to 'stay one on one' until it's done. Man up, take your beating or give one, just don't play the 'he's my brother card' my brother would have beat me for having some else fight my battle. finally, regardless of what was said, punks sucker punch! "

    THS Alum wrote on Oct 24, 2008 12:46 PM:

    " I know one of the injured locals. I'm in the Military (11 years and counting). I don't know the group of riders. I wasn't at the fight. My points. 1) I don't understand why everyone else had to jump in, the video clearly shows one man talking to another man, then the fight starts, the rest of the group could have kept any other individuals from jumping as opposed to jumpin in themselves. 2) Don't disrespect the military, we don't create war, we follow orders to go to war. "

    To AZ Service Member wrote on Oct 24, 2008 12:26 PM:

    " You are not-never have been-never could be - in any way associated with the military. Its obvious from your high school words you're some looser who spends to much time playing with his X-Box. No vet would ever condone this-its completely opposite of what we fought for and still stand for. And by the way--this is a club for the children of vets---not real vets. Maybe you should join them and go hang with the other wanna-be's. "

    june wrote on Oct 24, 2008 12:16 PM:

    " It seems bikers are no different than juvenil street gangs. How sad that people find this way of life cool!! "

    John wrote on Oct 24, 2008 12:07 PM:

    " The people who should be most ashamed of themselves are the veterans or active duty personnel who have attacked the Legacy Vets in this forum. You have presumed guilt without knowing the truth and have made comments about these men that is sad to read. These men are your brothers and deserve your trust and respect until proven otherwise. I wouldn't want most of you in a fox hole with me. Know your facts before you condemn someone. "

    Pauly wrote on Oct 24, 2008 10:21 AM:

    " This discussion if you want to call it that has gone way beyond commenting on that sorry bunch of vets to idiotic rants and posts. And funny, no arrests reported either. LOL! "

    Elite to Be For Real wrote on Oct 24, 2008 9:32 AM:

    " Smith told The Tombstone News that no one has been cited at this time. “The biker’s group Chapter President and Sergeant at Arms went through the security tape and gave me some names,” stated Smith. “One of the bikers had a collapsible baton and he hit one of the locals in the head. He will be charged with aggravated assault and another person will be charged with simple assault. We are going through the video and identifying more people. It is a slow process but I believe the outcome will be positive.”
    That's Ball!! "

    Elite wrote on Oct 24, 2008 9:16 AM:

    " "Be for real. Do you think other riders will drop dimes after seeing a video? Folks would be afraid of retaliation"
    Will if people wouldn't give up names than they are just as much a coward as the 20+ men who ganged up on a few. If they were worried about retaliation, then why were Legacy Riders banned from the American Legion and Bar? Don't you think that would be cause for retaliation? "

    Riding Club wrote on Oct 24, 2008 9:14 AM:

    " Het Army Veteran, thank you for your service. An MC is quite different from a "riding club". The biggest being in the level of commitment. Riding clubs get together when they feel like it. MC's get together because they are obligated. That's the difference in a loose organization and a Brotherhood. Brothers travel thousands of miles for a Brother in need.
    Forget the "sons" thing. It's poor reporting. "

    USMC Vet wrote on Oct 24, 2008 7:26 AM:

    " Well put Army Veteran, I too contemplated riding with some of the clubs here, but after seeing this kind of thing it's just not what I would want. Welcome home and thanks. "

    To Elite wrote on Oct 24, 2008 7:05 AM:

    " Be for real. Do you think other riders will drop dimes after seeing a video? Folks would be afraid of retaliation. I work with someone who was involved in this. He told me the Legacy Vets' side of the story. However, as we all know, there are 2 sides to every story. The Tombstone paper had a follow up on this story and a picture of one of the guys who was assaulted. "

    Wide Awake wrote on Oct 23, 2008 10:52 PM:

    " If you served proudly, congrats. The guy that gets my sandwich at lunch serves proudly also. Why do you say the guy who was drafted was "UNLUCKY". Your words not mine. You see that is the need for the charater attacks. I am using logic and your own words to shed light on this social problem inherent in military communities. Look at the highest number of forclosures in the country and the location. You will notice the prox. to military personnel and their support. WHy? These "bikers" are indicative of the lack of ed. associated with um? UCLA? "

    Army Veteran wrote on Oct 23, 2008 9:56 PM:

    " I got back from Iraq earlier this year and contemplated getting a bike, of course not a cruiser but the fact is thinking about trying to join a riding club really is out the question now. What ever the case, its such a waste of time when...wait a sec are these guys Vietnam vets or sons of Vietnam vets. Either their in their 50's or 60's or their a bunch of young punks. Come on people there are worse things in life, and a better biker would know that- stay safe, ride safe, live safe. "

    I agree wrote on Oct 23, 2008 6:27 PM:

    " I agree with enough already about drunks. The only problem is the drunks were not the bikers. "

    WM to Wide Awake wrote on Oct 23, 2008 5:32 PM:

    " I am educated and I served. I was not drafted; I joined to serve my country like many before and after me. Those who signed up put themselves in harm’s way. The ones drafted just got unlucky in the lotto. There are many honorable people who have not worn the military uniform (firefighters, police, and teachers to name a few). Just don't pretend you are knowledgeable about the military because you know someone who has served. "

    Elite wrote on Oct 23, 2008 5:31 PM:

    " Why do people always use forums to fight?
    Can't we all just get along?
    -Rodney King

    Are your words no better than the fist thrown at the bar? How can people judge others based on an opnion? Respect goes both ways my friends. "

    Former SV Girl wrote on Oct 23, 2008 5:29 PM:

    " How are the people who were injured in the fight? I haven't read anything about it since this article was published. "

    Elite wrote on Oct 23, 2008 5:17 PM:

    " I would hope that all the names of the Legacy members are posted on the club roster at American Legion. Then, all the cops need to do is show the film to Amercian Legion members and ask if they recognize anyone from the video. Make arrest, case solved.
    I just hope that this was not race related or I will personally persue Civil Rights violations against Legacy Riders. http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/civilrts.htm "

    New to SV wrote on Oct 23, 2008 9:26 AM:

    " Hey wide awake, what purpose do you serve in this country. I served and fought for my country while people like you got to sit in comfort and rave and rant about things you know nothing about. Freedom of speech is a great thing... even people like you get to speak out... even though you make no sense what so ever. "

    sierravistan wrote on Oct 23, 2008 8:16 AM:

    " Is the truth about the misbehaving if your wannabees bikers being poured out on this forum Pauly? You cant hack it? Kudos to the Editor, keep this forum going! "

    Pauly wrote on Oct 23, 2008 7:00 AM:

    " Editor, I hope your wide awake and realize this horse has died. "

    Mike wrote on Oct 23, 2008 6:32 AM:

    " Hey Wide Awake, you need to get a refund, your education movement didn't work. "

    wide awake a.k.a. Laugh Machine wrote on Oct 23, 2008 6:11 AM:

    " I can hear the comments now where should have been "were you drafted?" This will be the focal point, kind of like this war. WMD, Terroist training camps, etc. Spelling errors or Liberal Lies. Keep saying it and as Der Furer sagen "Tell a lie enough and it will become the truth." So thank you all for trading your futures for a subprime loan and a war we will never win. Who needs slavery when everybody is willing to surrender to propoganda, deny facts and blame everybody else for their inability to do the right thing. Peace "

    Wide Awake wrote on Oct 22, 2008 7:41 PM:

    " So nobody answered? Where you drafted? Did your platoon leader have to draw his side arm to get you out of the landing craft? I didn't have to join an organization, go fight a false war so I could build a resume. I joined the education movement. You know education has been known for the betterment of man. We have accomplished a few things without War. Many great men have said war is heck. Here war is a way to buy an over priced house in a backwards community and then tout your patriotism as you fail to vote. "

    Wuzahunhha wrote on Oct 22, 2008 1:32 PM:

    " The actions that occurred that night do not reflect the Military or veterans. They certainly do not reflect all MCs. This could have happened anywhere to anyone. Anyone here who has been to a bar knows that unfriendly words and looks are frequently exhanged. The only difference between this and many other bar "fights" is that these guys were wearing MC cuts instead of Abercrombie polos. For anyone that doesn't know, a bar fight is never a "fair" fight. Somone will always be stronger and someone will always have more friends. "

    PJR wrote on Oct 22, 2008 10:59 AM:

    " I know of one of the women trying to help her unconcious brother, was being kicked and punched and pinned to the ground. "she was one of the women you were trying to stop". It is so disgusting and people need to be arrested! Your telling me that these big bad Legacy Vets couldnt handle one drunk kid, that they had to have 30 men "teach him a lesson" to where he needed a machine to breathe for him? Your right, you guys are so tough and brave! Make sure you dont mess with these guys! "

    New to SV wrote on Oct 22, 2008 9:44 AM:

    " These people are supposed to be sons of Vietnam vets? This is how they honor their Father's memories!? Some where along the way these idiots are going to be knocked down a couple pegs and I hope no one jumps in to help them. And hey... great job Cochise Riders! I know a few of you and the few I have met are good guys. "

    Enough already wrote on Oct 22, 2008 6:54 AM:

    " We're sick of the biker arguments wasting space on the website. This is a dead horse that has been beaten. You could go on and on all day, but the fact of the matter is that most of the local biker groups, the ones who actually have to brag about themselves, don't conduct themselves in a way that portrays a good image. Most of us grew out of the join a club and drink until you puke stage back in high school. "

    Laugh Machine aka WA wrote on Oct 22, 2008 6:35 AM:

    " They can't be mad at Uncle Sam....they are all on his payroll. So they take after their Uncle Tom. Yes suh! Now lets speak of the drop in requirements to serve in the military... How about former service members in the news. CORBETT trial started on Tues. How's everbodies 401k? Those immigrants have ruined America..... In the news today Ford outsources more jobs to Mexico????? For Halloween you should all be Ostrich or Lemmings. Happy Halloween "

    Wide Awake wrote on Oct 22, 2008 6:22 AM:

    " Thirty Eight percent of the military personnel in Vietnam were drafted. The highest number of casulities came from this pool. To USMC the question is Were is the patriotism. You could either be drafted in the the Army and get your CIB and probably die or ..... Take the easy way out and JOIN UP and have a chance to live. Now don't be mad at me. Uncle Sam sent you there and now you want to claim you saved the world. How about you saved your own lives. Righteous or Self-Righteous? OOOH RAHHH "

    VOTE FOR BARAK wrote on Oct 22, 2008 1:21 AM:

    " The real issue here is the pent up frustration from our veterans due to the impending doom when the left wing liberals elect the next commander in chief. I think we should cut them some slack here. (A Dark cloud is forming fast:( "

    WM to wide awake wrote on Oct 21, 2008 10:51 PM:

    " So what do you consider strong? Those battles are fought on foreign soil and people like you can say what you do because you've never had the humbling experience of serving something bigger then yourself. Why don't you go back to flipping burgers. You don't have much potential if you don't understand the concept that first you must learn to follow before you can lead. The Marine Corps has a proud history of building leaders. Semper Fi "

    CAMBODIA wrote on Oct 21, 2008 10:33 PM:

    " I will pray for all of you.
    PEACE to ALL and REMEMBER THIS IS ARE LAND.
    THE LAND OF THE FREE THE HOME OF THE BRAVE.
    HE SEE NO COLOR.
    FOR THOSE WHO THINK THEY SERVE OUR COUNTRY.
    YOU YOUR SELF SHOULD KNOW DEEP IN YOUR HEART WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE IN A PLACE AND IN A SITUATION AND THE PERSON NEXT TO YOU WAS YOUR BROTHER,BUDDY.
    we who been there don't act like that.
    THINK ?
    BE COOL "

    Talk Talk Talk wrote on Oct 21, 2008 9:13 PM:

    " sierravistan - "wanna bees"??? - that's probably what was said to get the drunks in trouble in the first place. I take it you've not been around too many motorcycle clubs. "

    wide awake wrote on Oct 21, 2008 7:14 PM:

    " Hey USMC, Im glad to see you practicing what you preach. Here is an example of Do as I say... Is USMC your real name????? Hey Smart Guy?? How about the caucasian comment??? True or fiction. Michelle was correct. Sue the bar for not providing proper security. Everybody else, you guys are funnnnny. Look at your lives and your inate ability to follow blindly. Any excuse for failure is your motto. This is true, look at your friends and neighbors, have a drink and complain about the Gov. and the economy. Repeat and this is yor life. OH oH Spelling "

    WM to Citizen wrote on Oct 21, 2008 5:08 PM:

    " You don't carry yourself like someone who has honorably served. Even if those two did spout off, to push it further to be 30 on 2 was dishonorable. If you can't win at a battle of the wits then it's ok to hit? Come on, that is kindergarten stuff. Service members rag on each other all the time, they are well equipped to banter. That is how you can pick out who has served and who pretends to be a veteran. "

    B wrote on Oct 21, 2008 2:19 PM:

    " Did you hear of all the cops this week end around the Crystal Palace? They must be trying to make up for not caring last weekend. "

    Michelle wrote on Oct 21, 2008 10:14 AM:

    " No arrests as of yet? Shocking. The young men have rights. A group beating up two men is disgusting and (oh yeah) illegal. I hope the two young men hire attorneys and start sueing... the bar and the individuals who assualted them. Sounds like this will be the only way they will get some justice. "

    Sarah Z wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:18 AM:

    " If you ask me (and I'm sure no one will agree) if you put a huge group of people with alcohol in a small town theres bound to be a disagreement/fight. This doesn't mean bikers, are bad. Get a bunch of football fans together with alcohol, I'm sure there would be a fight there too. I say, leave the poor guys alone, they fought for the very freedom that we use and take for granted everyday! "

    sierravistan wrote on Oct 21, 2008 2:49 AM:

    " I think we should all get along. These guys don't represent the real biker clubs they are just wanna bees ..... so lets look past that and get along. "

    Hah. wrote on Oct 20, 2008 10:31 PM:

    " my daddy always told me never to go to a gunfight with a knife. "

    bisbee biker wrote on Oct 20, 2008 10:27 PM:

    " yea i hear you . all of you are agrueing about it not being your club and how it wasnt you and your club would never do that. but the bottom linehere is nobody cares what club you beong to when bad things happen. nobody is dealing with the real problem. hwy wasnt there more law enforcement presence. its not like they dont know they are in town. they come in the main drag where the marshalls sit in their cars naping and sipping coffee. are they jsut another prop for the town. "

    oldlady wrote on Oct 20, 2008 10:22 PM:

    " I have been around biker groups since I was a teen. What I know is that if there is a member of the group that is rear end that person is out. I have been involved with many clubs and there has never been one that tolerates this type of behavior. the group takes care of their club . as alot of you say, it is about respect. they dont want to be known as the group with the jerk. I also knwo from working my way through college as a bartender, bar fights happen. they are not fair "

    Moron Posters wrote on Oct 20, 2008 9:57 PM:

    " Tucson Dan, Fact, and Mary - The 3 of you COMBINED cannot get your facts straight. It's NOT "Legacy Riders". The least you can do is read the other comments and do a little research. Your posts are as inaccurate as the article. The club members are ALL veterans. A great many are combat vets. "

    Fact wrote on Oct 20, 2008 8:33 PM:

    " Son of Vets doesn't make you anything. But by your actions L.R. it makes you cowardly people that happen to ride bikes. "

    Mary wrote on Oct 20, 2008 4:37 PM:

    " The article says that the club members are "sons of Vietnam War veterans and some younger veterans"......That means that most of the members have never been to war, if any of them have....Are they trying to play grownup? "

    Citizen wrote on Oct 20, 2008 3:59 PM:

    " Hey wide awake we may have lost nam but we won WWII. So much for you being awake and paying attention. And as for the To Citizen post I would ask my uncles except that they are long since passed away. If they could see these posts they would be telling me not too waste precious time of people who have no understanding at all. And by the way how do you know I don't have a DD-214? How ignorant you all are. "

    Good one Monon wrote on Oct 20, 2008 3:22 PM:

    " You nailed it. "

    Mike wrote on Oct 20, 2008 2:50 PM:

    " One last comment, a lot of comments about cowards been thrown around. Lots of those "cowards" have lost sight, and limbs as well as psycological well being while serving multiple tours in the Middle East and elsewhere. Know a few of those boys and many are SpecOps guys who have gone to places you wouldn't even want to see on TV, wouldn't recommend calling them cowards to their faces. But I'm sure you keyboard commandos know everything. You've probably never retreated, but you've backspaced many times!!!!! "

    Mike wrote on Oct 20, 2008 2:44 PM:

    " 1. Barfights are not fair fights, you fight to win, they are not boxing contests. 2. Scrap with any MC not riding club but Motorcycle club and you will end up fighting them all. "He may not always be right, but he is always my brother" 3. 30 on 2 is crap, 30 can't fight 2 don't believe me get 15 of your closest friends and have them surround you and just try to touch you, only the closest 3 or 4 will be able to , the others will just stand around. "

    Tucson Dan wrote on Oct 20, 2008 2:33 PM:

    " In response to Citizen's post: The Legacy Riders are people who served in the military during conflict. Some may be combat veterans while others are not. The no-class wannabe punks who did this do not deserve any kind of respect. Respect is something that's earned. By the way, I've been to Tombstone on my Harley a number of times and never had anything but a good time with the locals. The LR punks were, in my opinion, way out of line. "

    Lame wrote on Oct 20, 2008 2:21 PM:

    " I think it's great how every one is so quick to judge and point the finger at who's right or wrong. The one true fact is that UNLESS YOU WERE THERE, and in the mix, no one knows for sure what actually happened. At least no one died. Most people would've defended themselves in some way or another, so don't judge...deep down you would've done the same thing. Fights happen all the time at any given location, has nothing to do with the bikers. "

    Enough wrote on Oct 20, 2008 1:47 PM:

    " All of this anger directed at each other is due to a reporter, a editor, and a newspaper. I personally know this paper could not get the story right even if it fell into their laps.
    Enough with all the Antimilitary & Anit vet crap. What is done is done and it is over. Drop it before something else happens! That is just what this paper is looking for (to sell more papers). "

    biker lady wrote on Oct 20, 2008 1:15 PM:

    " Wide Awake you are a loser!! People join groups to share their interests with others who enjoy the same things. People join the military to proudly serve their country. You, apparently, don't fall under either catagory. LOSER "

    USMC Vet wrote on Oct 20, 2008 12:45 PM:

    " Hey Wide Awake.... strong, intelligent, and courageous people join the military. The truly weak people are the ones that blog anonymously while bad-mouthing others, and even misspell words while they are doing it (it's "losing")...seems like you may not be as smart as you think you are. "

    Pauly wrote on Oct 20, 2008 12:24 PM:

    " I think if "Wide Awake" was the victim of what happened, there would be more support for what the VNVMC did. I don't believe the editor even allowed his bias comments to be posted. No constructive or relevant point I can see. "

    Molon Labe wrote on Oct 20, 2008 8:15 AM:

    " It looks like someone shook the nut tree and "Wide Awake" fell out. "

    Wide Awake wrote on Oct 20, 2008 6:29 AM:

    " One more comment. I bet the majority of the members of Your Club are Caucasian. Another point for Darwin. If you don't understand the reference go to the Legion and have somebody tell you what it means and then you can start your fight against the "Theory of Evolution." ....Again "

    wide awake wrote on Oct 20, 2008 6:21 AM:

    " If Vets are responsible for our freedoms how come we are free today after loosing Nam? Are we winning Iraq?????? Blame the loss in Nam on the politicos and how about a couple Yeah butts. What about Kent State? If we could lose a war because of what you will say was political....Who cares for real, if you have not "heard it from" your one source you will never attempt to understand you are all weak. Weak people join groups, gangs, the MILITARY. If you do not acknowlege this truth, keep the lie alive and God help your Children. "

    What wrote on Oct 19, 2008 9:42 PM:

    " Who kept their cool?? "

    To Citizen wrote on Oct 19, 2008 8:46 PM:

    " You still don't get it. Those who honorably serve this country completely understand that they fight for our constitutional rights. Those rights enable Americans to say what they please. Those are the rights of a free nation. Have you heard of military bearing? That is the capability to put up with obnoxious crap while keeping your cool. If you had gone to bootcamp and had a DI in your face, you'd get that. Perhaps your uncles can tell you the story. "

    Hey Citizen wrote on Oct 19, 2008 8:13 PM:

    " You're right. YOUR posts here are shameful and disgusting. "

    To Citizen wrote on Oct 19, 2008 7:21 PM:

    " What is disgusting is that this club, (Legacy Riders) use their service in the military as an excuse. And really is it a requirement to be a Vet to join that group of cowards? Do they check D214's? "

    Citizen wrote on Oct 19, 2008 1:40 PM:

    " I have alot of respect for anyone who has served this great and wonderful nation that we live in. Two Uncles served in WWII both came back, alive. I happen to know that they were brave individuals who took NO crap from anyone. If they had been in the bar in Tombstone they would have done the same thing. Anyone would. You don't insult people who have put their lives on the line. I still think that you people writing on here are shameful and disgusting. "

    Tombstone Native wrote on Oct 19, 2008 9:43 AM:

    " The individuals who assaulted the two residents are complete cowards. They are a disgrace to all veterans and deserve NO RESPECT. The attack on these locals appeared to be planned and deliberate. Apparently, this group of thugs have a track record of causing problems in other communities (Yuma) and deserve to be prosecuted. "

    TOWER wrote on Oct 19, 2008 8:27 AM:

    " Nice to know that you went and hid your colors after the fight, does that mean you hid your colors when you also fought for our country? You do not know what it means to be a soldier or a brother! "

    To Citizen wrote on Oct 18, 2008 9:02 PM:

    " You may know some of the guys from the Legacy Vets MC, but you don't know all of them. I know of a member who is a family man, yada, yada, yada; but he told me himself of the weapons he always carries when he rides with the gang. Respect is not a given, you have to earn it. Oh yeah, I'm a retired vet who doesn't ride or boast about the battles I've fought so the American citizens can sleep safely in bed at night. "

    U gotta be kidding wrote on Oct 18, 2008 8:46 PM:

    " Citizen - Whats offensive is that you think 2 locals deserved to be pummeled by a biker gang of more than 20 because of something they said. These punks may or may not ever have set foot in a combat zone. Even if they did, what they did in Tombstone makes them cowards and does nothing to make me sleep soundly at night. There simply is no excuse for 20 to gang up on 2. That was disgusting. Shame on them and shame on anyone who defends the actions of these gutless thugs. "

    To Citizen wrote on Oct 18, 2008 7:11 PM:

    " Your comment is offensive too. So if someone says something, they deserve to be beat up by 30 idiots? And are you saying all the members of the Legacy club are veterans of wars? If they are they sure are a disgrace to most vets. Who were really the pack of wolves in this case? Nam Vet here. 68-70 "

    Hereford Resident wrote on Oct 18, 2008 5:19 PM:

    " To Citizen: So what you are saying is it is ok for 30 gang bangers to pound on 2 guys just because they served in the Army? What are you smoking because that is a load of male cow manure. "

    Citizen wrote on Oct 18, 2008 4:28 PM:

    " I find your treatment of these men the Legacy Vets MC offensive. I have seen the clip on kold.com and it is clear to me that these two LOCALS were saying something to the Legacy Vets. Don't know what but it was nothing good or they wouldn't have been beaten up. Love Respect and Brotherhood go a long way people. These men have fought in many battles so that you can sleep in bed at night safe. Yet you turn on them like a pack of ravenous wolves. Disgusting. Shame on you all. "

    Citizen wrote on Oct 18, 2008 3:08 PM:

    " I decided to comment here after reading some of the comments from do gooders who don't know what they are talking about. First of all the Legacy Vets MC is a brotherhood of individuals who believe in some basic human rights. They are not gang members. I know some of these guys and they have families and are upstanding members of many different communities. They have fought many battles from Vietnam to Iraq and Afganistan. They have enabled you to be able to sleep soundly in your beds at night. "

    VetYuma wrote on Oct 18, 2008 2:06 PM:

    " Toe to toe, otherwise it is a cowardly act. "

    SierraVistan wrote on Oct 17, 2008 10:47 PM:

    " The wusses ran over to Big Nose Kates afterward, like scared little girls, and hid the colors they're so proud of, by changing clothes in the bathroom. How hilarious is that? And they want respect?? Gimme a break, please. Our local girl scout troop deserves more respect! "

    VFW Rider wrote on Oct 17, 2008 10:44 PM:

    " It is really sad that this whole mess will have a bad ripple effect onto every motorcycle organization throughout Cochise county and perhaps even throughout the entire state of Arizona. I am very concerned now about not only riding my bike to Tombstone, like I have for many years, but even going to Tombstone at all for awhile. This is going to hurt everybody, not just bikers, but Tombstone business as well. "

    VFW Rider wrote on Oct 17, 2008 4:41 PM:

    " There certainly seems to be a lot of finger pointing in every direction here. I encourage everyone to take a breath and think. Yes an incident happened. Right or wrong it happened. Please don't take your frustrations out on everyone on a motorcycle by cutting them off or flipping them the finger.
    To start bringing in organizations such as the PGR/ALR/and VFW Riders who were not there and are not a Motorcycle Club (MC) is wrong. None of the groups I listed are an MC nor desire to be an MC. "

    A Vet wrote on Oct 17, 2008 3:51 PM:

    " Please don't confuse veteran motorcycle organizations with motorcycle clubs. They are not the same and serve different purposes. "

    To VFW Member wrote on Oct 17, 2008 3:33 PM:

    " Sorry you think we have "taken" over your post. We are NOT from other MC's as you say we are from.
    We are active duty and retired military. We help out more than you think we do. Maybe if you would come out and help, you would see us there WORKING. We are here, and we are NOT going anywhere. We have a right to be at "our" post. So get off your high horse and help make our post better than sit there and complain. "

    IWasThere wrote on Oct 17, 2008 2:19 PM:

    " This was no fight. As I stood in a corner of the bar I witnessed a gang beating. As a combat veteran I also witnessed poor combat control. Either the whole lot of them were bombed drunk, or this was their very first taste of combat. "

    Jess wrote on Oct 17, 2008 12:32 PM:

    " Tombstone is a has been town that has been over commercialized and dusted over again. These bikers are bunch of fat over weight has beens that have nothing but time. Yes there are several quality bike clubs in town that are an asset to the community, but these guys are just the pit of the community. I am glad they were run out. I wish we could deport them somewhere. "

    Gary wrote on Oct 17, 2008 9:45 AM:

    " I agree with Pat. These "bikers" are not tough, just a bunch of weakling cowards who can't win in a fair fight. If they are really vets, they probably were REMF's who never saw combat. How can anyone justify such cowardly acts? "

    P wrote on Oct 17, 2008 9:16 AM:

    " No the VNVMC nor their CHILDREN have a chapter in Cochise County and we don't want them here either. "

    To Mac wrote on Oct 17, 2008 9:01 AM:

    " Yea, right. And how much for the bridge in Brooklyn? "

    Mac wrote on Oct 17, 2008 7:21 AM:

    " I was in Kates and the Crystal that night. I can tell you this much, the Legacy Vets have always carried themselves well and been respectful in my presence. Word in TS is that the "Local" guys were really pushing for a fight, and the Vets tried repeatedly to difuse the situation. I'm not suggesting what happended was right, but where the heck do locals get off messing with tourist $$?? "

    Yep wrote on Oct 16, 2008 9:24 PM:

    " SoAzNative has it right! Pass me another bier! "

    Pat Hurley wrote on Oct 16, 2008 8:19 PM:

    " It sounds like these Legacy Riders are rife with sissy boys. Sucker punching and 30-on-one are hallmarks of gutless, biker frauds. Odds are that my grandmother could take on these tough guys (insert laughter) and mop the floor with them so long as it was a one-on-one fight. But that doesn't appear to be the Legacy Rider's style. No, beating up on the weak and overwhelming the outnumbered are more their style. Hooray for ALL local establishments that pre-emptively ban these barbarians before they have the chance to repeat this outrage. "

    WM To Bad Wolf wrote on Oct 16, 2008 7:36 PM:

    " We don't need your kind endangering the rest of us with your stupid rules of "bikers". What can you possibly know of military tactics? lesson one, this is America, OUR HOME. Murphy's law of combat, friendly fire-isn't. If you don't get it then you either need a mental hospital or take your butt to IRAQ where no one would want to serve beside you because you have no idea who the enemy is. Mess with one, you mess with all? Would one of you please go jump off a cliff so the rest of the sheep can follow. "

    Thoughtful wrote on Oct 16, 2008 7:07 PM:

    " There are good bike clubs in the Sierra Vista area that ride for and sponsor chartities. Kind, outgoing, caring ladies and gentlemen. The Legacy Riders isn't one of them. I am not sure if they even have a chapter here, but if they do, don't contribute a cent to them. Boycott their functions. "

    Enjoying the humor wrote on Oct 16, 2008 3:24 PM:

    " I just want to say I have enjoyed all the humorous postings about this article. I always get a kick out of reading the comments on contriversial topics. "

    To To Rider wrote on Oct 16, 2008 10:23 AM:

    " Rivals to the Angels??? Keep dreaming. If that were true, the "Rivalry" would have been over on day one. That was funny though! "

    SoAzNative wrote on Oct 16, 2008 9:54 AM:

    " "The Town too Tough to Help the Local School Children and Pass the Budget Override" These rowdy bikers would be more likely to donate their money to the schools than the locals will be to pay a measly $5-$10 more a month in property taxes to properly fund the schools there. The kids can't bring books home for homework, the high school has no funds to finish the football field, and the teachers are under paid and now spending their own money for supplies in the classrooms. Now that's tough Tombstone! "

    WORD TO THE WISE wrote on Oct 16, 2008 9:35 AM:

    " And to the person who said the two clubs were rivals, KNOW NOTHING about the two Clubs. The one club walks the WALL and the other club respects that, as the respect is returned. "

    WORD TO THE WISE wrote on Oct 16, 2008 9:27 AM:

    " Anyone who knows Club Protocol, knows DROPPPING CLUB NAMES...IS A NO NO! Also, any righteous Club knows, you MESS WITH ONE, YOU MESS WITH ALL! "

    There are enough facts wrote on Oct 16, 2008 9:03 AM:

    " You club members can talk tough all you want, but you have been exposed for what you are. Judging by the available facts and the comments here, the decent law abiding public will not tolerate you or your lawlessness. Your loud mouth and threats won't get you back in the bar or the Legion Post. No honor. Only shame. "

    Not all MC clubs are bad wrote on Oct 16, 2008 8:18 AM:

    " It is sad that all clubs are being tarnished by one groups actions. If you would like to see a club that is family oriented and one that stands for good, head on down to Benson this weekend and see what Southern Arizona Harley Riders stands for and what they do for the community! Some clubs do not have the mob mentality and some do still stand for and show good values. "

    MC RIDER wrote on Oct 16, 2008 7:55 AM:

    " TO BAD THE LEGACY VETS ARE JUST A BUNCH OF WANNA BE'S WHO DON'T REALLY HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN M/C.IT'S SORRY CLUBS LIKE THEIRS THAT GIVE THE M/C WORLD A BAD IMAGE.SOUNDS LIKE THE BEST THING ANY ESTABLISHMENT CAN DO IS TO STAND TOGETHER AND BAN FROM ALL OF THEIR BUSINESSES.GOOD LUCK TO THE FINE PEOPLE OF TOMBSTONE.DON'T LET A BUNCH OF MORONS TARNISH YOUR TOWN.KEPP THEM OUT. "

    Statia wrote on Oct 16, 2008 7:31 AM:

    " This is very, VERY unfortunate. I am a repeat tourist to Tombstone and this incident will not disuade my return. I do have a suggestion however. I worked in a Saloon as a bartender in Temecula for 8 years. They always had a "No Colors" policy, and it seemed to work. It's ashame that the respectful MC clubs have to be penalized for someone ele's actions, but again, the policy worked. "

    To everyone wrote on Oct 16, 2008 7:07 AM:

    " Everyone who is complaining: You might be dogging this club's actions on here, but I guarantee that anyone who has been following along is much less likely to disrespect this club when you see them in a bar because now you know what will happen to you. In that regard, this incident serves as a reminder to not mess with them, like it or not. "

    To Rider wrote on Oct 16, 2008 7:03 AM:

    " Your comment "red and white need to come down here to take care of their problem children" - The Vietnam Vets MC and Legacy Vets MC absolutely have nothing to do with the Hells Angels. In fact, they're rivals. "

    BBB Member wrote on Oct 16, 2008 5:33 AM:

    " Please people stop dogging Tombstone. Do you want to keep the tourist away and turn Tombstone to a ghost town because of some wanna be biker gang? "

    John wrote on Oct 16, 2008 5:00 AM:

    " I get a chuckle out of the many comments made so far. I think most of you are clueless but that's alright, we love you anyway.
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck." "

    rider wrote on Oct 15, 2008 9:30 PM:

    " Sounds to me like the red and white need to come down and take care of their problem children. "

    Stugis wrote on Oct 15, 2008 8:20 PM:

    " 50 thousand bikers at bike week in Sturgis with less problems than it Tombstone. Bikers including the Hells Angels. Maybe the Hells Angels should come here to teach the Legacy riders what tough is. "

    To Mike wrote on Oct 15, 2008 7:52 PM:

    " The Mike of Oct 15, 2008 8:31 & 8:34 AM:
    What the H are you saying? Are you saying the Legacy rider gangsters were in the right? And most of us don't believe your 3 tours, and 3 purple hearts. Four tours here, eight purple hearts! Beat that. "

    Bad Wolf wrote on Oct 15, 2008 7:38 PM:

    " These three lessons are why you do not disrespect a member of an MC or you will get hurt.
    The reporter that wrote this article needs to be fired, if he was there how could he not get the facts straight? "

    Bad Wolf wrote on Oct 15, 2008 7:36 PM:

    " Obviously, most of you that have been commenting have not a clue of the biker world. From the ramblings that I read you must be riders not bikers. Lesson one, mess with one club member, then mess with all. This is an old military tactic, its call over whelming force. Lesson two, there is no such thing as a fair fight. Lesson three, put your opponent on the ground, and stomp until he can not get up, this means use anything available. "

    Tombstonian wrote on Oct 15, 2008 7:01 PM:

    " In response to "Has Anyone Else" wrote: You are 100% right about weapons being prohibited in bars. However, in Tombstone the laws are rarely upheld. We, as locals, have witnessed on more occasions than we can remember, off-duty Tombstone Marshal deputies coming in to the Crystal Palace with weapons on their hip. When asked why they are allowed to get away it, it was quoted by one, "because I can do anything I want." Does that give you any indication of how things are run in this town? When brought to the Marshal's attention, it was ignored. "

    Burglary Victim wrote on Oct 15, 2008 6:50 PM:

    " To all those who ask about why there have been no arrests...well, that would require the Deputies to actually do some work. The mentality at the Marshal's Office is a disgrace. They are a disgrace to all Peace Officers in this state. I filed a burglary report and nothing has been done. I even know who did it, and still nothing has been done. The idea of being in the wild west is great for the tourists, but for those of us that live here it really stinks! "

    Nam Vet wrote on Oct 15, 2008 6:47 PM:

    " This is not the first of even second time that the LEGACY VETS M/C has made the news for rat packing somebody. Nor has this only happened in AZ. Last year in FL 30 or so of the attacked a Vietnam veteran at his own home on Veterans day while he was having a BBQ. The LEGACY were not invited. Their story "We didn't start it, but we did finish it." They have been involved in scuffles with other Military Biker Clubs around the country. It's time that the bike club(s) that sanctioned them, put them out of business.Beforetheybecomevictimsthemselves "

    a lady who rides wrote on Oct 15, 2008 6:40 PM:

    " Don't judge all riders, or all M/C club members, or all veterans, by the standards of a sick few who choose gang mentality, and defend their bullying actions by blaming it on their service or their mythical brotherhood. There will always be bullies in this world. Their actions endanger the lives of all of us decent people who also happen to ride. I ride every day, belong to NO club, and suddenly this week cars are cutting me off and endangering ME on my bike to pay back those biker PUNKS! Think people. Then make a smarter choice. "

    Mark C. wrote on Oct 15, 2008 5:08 PM:

    " The Herald also needs to recognize that their are a lot of Veterans who are also riders that have nothing to do with this group, it's important that you be as clear as possible regarding the organizations involved in this incident. People who took part in the beating or in preventing anyone from attempting to stop the beating should be charged ASAP. Tombstone & Bisbee also needs to put some extra security in place during Helldorado. "

    Joking wrote on Oct 15, 2008 12:23 PM:

    " There are enough facts - "Legacy/Vets/riders/whoever you are...a shameful cowardly biker organization with no honor". To whom are you referring to? You make accusations against anyone with the name "legacy". You state there enough facts but have NO IDEA as to whom to direct your idiotic rants. "

    P wrote on Oct 15, 2008 11:02 AM:

    " The VNVLVMC are what they have always have been and this day just proves it. If they had any respect they would pull their own patches. "

    Honorable Vet wrote on Oct 15, 2008 11:01 AM:

    " Not all legacy members are vets. Not all Vietnam vets feel that they need to be "protected" by a group like this. Respect is given where respect is due, not demanded on the internet. "

    Has Anyone Else wrote on Oct 15, 2008 10:56 AM:

    " Has anyone wondered about the individual who showed the LEO his weapon? City, County and State laws ALL prohibit firearms in a bar. Another example of this groups willingness to shrug the law and do as they please, where and when they please. Your service didnt buy you the right to shrug the law or common decency! To the VFW commando against anyone who doesnt drive a Crown Vic and live to his narrow minded standards, YOU ARE THE SAME SALT YOU Bxxxx ABOUT and no better just because everyone doesnt meet up with your utopia! GET A LIFE! "

    Todd8080 wrote on Oct 15, 2008 9:52 AM:

    " There's a phrase that every child knows very well: "No fair, two against one!" Which proves that even little children know more about honor than these "clubs". "

    Just a Vet wrote on Oct 15, 2008 9:01 AM:

    " Its funny how the news calls these locals victims, you men, young kids Ect next they will be saying how they were in the bar collected money for widows and orphens. Yes the locals blame the bad motorcycle club for picking on the poor locals, There own local club (name not clear) steps in for the rescue big bad cop says he stood and said we will each draw and I will win. This sounds like a bad movie script. Comming soon Terror in Tombstone. Peaceful town folks takes out Biker gang. yea right "

    Mike wrote on Oct 15, 2008 8:34 AM:

    " I wish to continue what took place. The women involved themselves were locals as well and jumped in no Legacy Vet punched on they may have been knocked down in the push. As for the other club stepping up to protect these punks. Give me a break they did not defend anyone but got cought up in the act. "

    Mike wrote on Oct 15, 2008 8:31 AM:

    " Yes you can call me punk a disgrace to all Vets and whatever vile crap you want. It does not change the facts I'm a vet I have three tours in Iraq I have been awarded three Purple Hearts so I guess thats what a coward is in some of these post. When local bad boys try and make a name for them selves by threats then they get what they asked for. Yes I was there and would do the same thing again. "

    To You Dont Know wrote on Oct 15, 2008 8:15 AM:

    " You have some nerve! Congatulations you just insulted every single active duty rider who ALWAYS must wear specified "PPE" and their family members, DOD civilians and defence contractor (while operating on post) who ride in the country! They are required by regulation to wear protective gear to include high visibility vests (over long sleeve protective shirt or jacket)or high vis jackets, over the ankle footwear, long pants, gloves, protective eyewear and snell/dot approved helmet. We usually only get seen riding on weekends because we actualy have JOBS, working from 0600 to 1800+ every day! GOOD JOB at earning recpect! "

    Member wrote on Oct 15, 2008 6:33 AM:

    " Will Legacy VET MC Member please call the AZ State SA "

    To VNVLVMCNY wrote on Oct 15, 2008 6:22 AM:

    " You mean like how they ran to Big Nose Kate's afterwords like the little cowards they are. Big bad bikers fleeing like cockroaches when the lights come on so that they could ditch the colors they are so proud of. Yea, real tough guys. "

    To VFW Member comment wrote on Oct 15, 2008 1:39 AM:

    " Your obvisouly hung up on rank, there is no rank in the VFW. The VFW was doing just fine until you riders came along. We never had a problem with our rep. or ever questioned. I too served my country and have respect for the older guys because I will never experience half of what they've gone through. You all have brought the disgusting biker lifesyle into the Post and yes you are here, don't mean I have to like it. I have fought the enemy and on the homefront I fight me fellow Americans, just to have an opinion. "

    There are enough facts wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:07 PM:

    " Some of you want to split hairs and shoot the messenger (Herald). But the facts are clear enough: surveillance video, eyewitnesses (on the record ones, not you 'brave' anonymous ones commenting here), marshal statements, etc., etc. Bottom line: Legacy Vets/riders/whoever you are ... a shameful, cowardly biker organization with no honor. "

    Nam Vet wrote on Oct 14, 2008 8:45 PM:

    " I be the one that wrote to I do care. I am a Vet 68-70. So I am not just typing, and I do ride, (Road King) don't wear a $300 day-glow jacket, nor a $500 Harley jacket with patches on it, don't need to belong to a club of guys that think they are big men, when in a large group. So your insinuation is a weak as your bravdo. "

    BW wrote on Oct 14, 2008 8:20 PM:

    " To "To I Do Care", WM, and others sharing your beliefs. You're right on the mark, my friends. No truer words were ever spoken. I wasn't there; but don't need to be. I wasn't in WWII either but I suspect it did happen as history books have revealed. It sure wasn't a class act nor did the "Legacy" MC earn anyone's respect by how they "covered their backs" with ridiculous odds and affected innocent people and damaging the saloon. THAT's their "Legacy". Yes, indeed, GROW UP! "

    VNVLVMCNY member wrote on Oct 14, 2008 7:53 PM:

    " Looks like my brothers did what they thought was right. Did any of you commenters ever do that, or turn your tales and RUN? LR&B "

    Gullible People wrote on Oct 14, 2008 7:29 PM:

    " There are sure lots of gullible people posting about an inaccurate report. "

    Believe Everything You Read wrote on Oct 14, 2008 6:39 PM:

    " "Legacy Riders" - that information is WRONG "a group made up primarily of sons of Vietnam War veterans and some younger veterans" - that information is WRONG "Cochise Ghost Riders" - that information is WRONG "R.J. Herring said the biker group's sergeant-at-arms failed in his oversight responsibilities - that information is club business. As such it has to be taken as WRONG. It appears that many folks posting believe anything they read. "

    To YOU DONT KNOW wrote on Oct 14, 2008 6:22 PM:

    " No one is badmouthing all MCs. Your so called MC is being badmouthed because you all acted like punks. Motorcycling has nothing whatever to do with what you guys did. What happened in that bar was the act of a bunch of hoodlum wannabe bikers out to prove their manhood and all they accomplished was to show everyone the kind of low life wusses they really are. I sincerely hope you guys loose your colors over this. "

    WM wrote on Oct 14, 2008 5:20 PM:

    " The military instills a sense of honor in it's men and women. That trash do not rate the distinguished title of "Veteran". If there were any veterans present, they would've acted honorably. As far as the motorcycle clubs go, a motorcycle is a form of transportation. I ride, yes it is refreshing feel the wind and peace of the open road. If you think that it rates getting drunk and acting like a jerk, GROW UP!! THIS BEHAVIOR IS NOT TOLERATED! "

    LEGACY VET MC MEMBER wrote on Oct 14, 2008 4:29 PM:

    " To "To I do care", yes I served in the military and that itself deserves respect. I served this country with pride, and me and my Legacy Vet brothers will not apologize for our actions. We aren't insecure and we don't have immature egos, unless you include the fact that we fought in Vietnam to protect YOUR FREEDOM. So while you type away your comments behind a computer screen, think about safe you sleep at night. We weren't the ones who even started the fight, it was some young ruffin nicknamed "Jay" who did. "

    YOU DONT KNOW wrote on Oct 14, 2008 12:55 PM:

    " First off. If someone gets in my face bragging about having knives on Him, He needs to get dropped BEFORE He pulls them. If his Friend jumps in, so will mine. If the bar patrons move towards me, my friends will stop them. Has nothing to do with respect..it's looking out for each other. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
    Second; If you were not there, than keep your mouth shut about MC's. We respect that you are only good for weekend riding with your $300 day-glow riding jackets. Dont bad mouth all MC's without knowing what happened. "

    To I do care wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:57 AM:

    " Just because someone served in the military, and belongs to a MC club, doesn't make them deserve any respect.
    Respect is earned by actions, and it seems the the Legacy riders have a gang mentality, who's members are insecure, and belonging to a club helps boost their imature egos. There are other clubs in this area, where all the members act like ladies and gentlemen, not gangsters. "

    Walter wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:36 AM:

    " These "men" deserve no respect. They are nothing but gutless cowards. Anyone who would join in such a savage and cowardly beating should be imprisoned for life. Cowards like these make me want to puke! "

    Idiots wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:22 AM:

    " Disrespecting the sacrifice of your parents in Viet Nam shows how petty and irrelevant these "Club" members are. It takes a man to walk away. These are obviously just wannabe "boys" preying on the weak. Deeds speak louder than words, eye witness. The Karma wheel is a lot bigger than a bike wheel, when it comes back around. Jerks are as jerks do. Get a job and get a life. "

    LegionRider wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:19 AM:

    " American Legion Riders and VFW Sky Island Riders make up the majority of the Patriot Guard Riders who escort fallen service members at funerals and escort units departing and returning from combat zones. The hoodlums that started the brawl in Tombstone are the dregs of the earth who have banded together and ride motorcycles. They are courageous in large groups only, just like the little wimps they are. These punks should loose their colors! "

    to VFW Member wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:10 AM:

    " I am the only one who mentioned BBQ's so you must be addressing me, I never once mentioned VFW or ALR, not once, my group, and the only one I will ride with is PGR and yes they are upstanding pillars of society. The membership includes active and retired generals and admirals, senior enlisted and officers, senior defense officials and any upstanding person who owns any type of licenced and insured motorcycle. NONE wear any MC colors at OUR rides and we donate money and time for good causes to include a $100000 raffled custom all procedes to charity "

    LEGACY VET MC MEMBER wrote on Oct 14, 2008 10:44 AM:

    " After the fight was over in the bar, we asked the guy if he was done fighting and we were going to move the guys forcibly out of the bar so we could go back to celebrating. Well when they got to the door, the guys started to fight again and made its way outside. After that I do not know much more b/c the marshalls were arriving and the bar was shut down. But WE did not start the fight, and we did not beat up women, they got in the middle of a melee. "

    LEGACY VET MC MEMBER wrote on Oct 14, 2008 10:42 AM:

    " WE, the members of the legacy vets, were trying to keep women and others from getting involved but the women that got injured were those that got in the middle of the melee and would not listen to those of us keeping people out of the way, women in particular. There were many of the guys friends that tried to jump in and we prevented more fights by controlling the local drunks. "

    LEGACY VET MC MEMBER wrote on Oct 14, 2008 10:40 AM:

    " The kid with the red shirt was sprting three to four knives in his pockets which he said he was not afraid to use. He was also really intoxicated and was asked by members of our Motorcycle Club to calm down or leave. He decided to mouth off to some people and threaten my brothers. The fight was not 30 to 2. After the fight started two of his friends got involved as well as some cochise ghost riders. "

    LEGACY VET MC MEMBER wrote on Oct 14, 2008 10:38 AM:

    " So everyone writing in this forum thinks they know stuff. How fitting. I am a member of the Legacy Vets Motorcycle Club. First off, we are not anything like the ALR, or any other organization of motorcyclists. We are a motorcycle club made up of people who have served honorably in the military from Vietnam through present day. Now getting to the fight, I was in the bar when it went down. The guy that got the fight started was a young kid with blonde hair wearing a red shirt. "

    Veteran wrote on Oct 14, 2008 9:57 AM:

    " Respect is earned...not given or deserved. and if they are still active duty...the Military has policies about gang membership. "

    I do care wrote on Oct 13, 2008 10:57 PM:

    " The clubs that are named are not accurate.The clubs that were there are the Vietnam Vets M/C, Legacy Vets M/C,and the last club is the Cochise Riders M/C.No one has mentioned there is members of both the Vietnam Vets and Legacy Vets M/C's that are still active members of the military. This club does deserve respect,every member in this one club has or is still fighting and serving our country for all of our FREEDOM! "

    old time biker wrote on Oct 13, 2008 10:56 PM:

    " No one knows what set this off,could have been the age old bikers vs. cowboy thing.Whatever it is the clubs will most likely handle this among themselves,as this brings heat on everybody.I spent some time in Tombstone over the weekend and most the people I talked to were still welcoming the bike riders patch or not.However some locals were acting like it was bikers vs. cowboys...this has happened for decades and may linger for some time,most guys enjoy riding and having a good time hence the term MOTORCYCLE CLUB......so relax it with work its self out...viva helldorado! "

    David wrote on Oct 13, 2008 8:49 PM:

    " This gives the rest of the people who ride motorcycles a bad name. My wife and I both ride motorcycles and we do not belong to any club because of this type of stuff. "

    I dont care wrote on Oct 13, 2008 7:02 PM:

    " And who cares if the guys that got beat up were out of line? This is one club that doesn't deserve any respect,(what ever their name is, we still don't know) I am sure that the Herald will give the leader of the pack, an interview so he can explain why they need to use the gang mentality, to settle a dispute between two people. Come on Pres., call the Herald. "

    Member VFW wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:17 PM:

    " So just because the VFW and ALR bikers escort funeral processions and have BBQs it's supposed to make them the pillar of the community? I think not. Most come from M/Cs and have brought that reckless and disgusting lifestyle with them and there are a lot us that don't like it! There has already been incidents of misbehavior among them but for some goshdarn reason they don't make it public, I wonder why? I never see these groups at Post functions other than their own and when they are there, they're rude as heck. I pray you go away. "

    Now what wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:01 PM:

    " Helldorado days is coming and once again I do believe Tombstone will have to live up to it's wild wild west days motto. I think I am going to stay home. I hope and pray I'm wrong but you know how gangs work, I don't care what they drive. Marshall you better get some back up. "

    Just Sick wrote on Oct 13, 2008 5:54 PM:

    " I hope all decent people avoid Tombstone until something is done. Why did the Marshall's ofc not arrest these MC maggots? Are they afraid? Or, just inept, or both? Until the Tombstone bars stop catering to these bad groups, this kind of thing will keep happening. Why no story about the past events just like this one? This has been going on for awhile, no? Someone needs to contact the AZ Liquor Board and the AZ Attorney Generals ofc and get some law and order. "

    a lady who rides wrote on Oct 13, 2008 4:46 PM:

    " When are there going to be some arrests for assault in this case? To those commenting that 30 against 2 is a fair fight - shame on you. One on one = fair enough. Mob violence = sick. Is that the kind of world you want to live in? "

    I was there wrote on Oct 13, 2008 12:53 PM:

    " Real men don't need to prove themselves. That's a bunch of bull, real men prove themselves all the time. The video clearly show's the young man walk up to the Vet lean in on him and invade his space. He clearly speaks to the Vet. Now what is said I don't know, but those two were looking for trouble and found it. As for the woman who said no one was helping. myself and several other Brothers were pulling people off and trying to neutralize the situation. Bottome line, they screwed up looking for trouble. "

    wrote on Oct 13, 2008 9:42 AM:

    " The article has the group's name wrong, the background the group's membership wrong, and NOTHING factual about what started the incident.
    The owner of the bar knows the responsibilities of the groups sergeant-at-arms better than the man wearing the patch?
    I think it best to wait for the REAL facts to come in before making a comment and looking like a fool. "

    Educated wrote on Oct 13, 2008 9:31 AM:

    " It appears someone got out of line by mouthing off and was educated. That's been going on in bars since the first idiot running on liquid courage, decided to mouth off.
    Some folks seem to think a barroom brawl is something new. "

    Filthy wrote on Oct 13, 2008 4:31 AM:

    " One on all, All on one. I am sure if the 2 men beat down had 30 guys with them and there was only 2 bikers there it would be the other way around and nobody would have said a thing because they are bikers. That'll teach those 2 guys from going to a boot party without boots on ! "

    To eye witness wrote on Oct 12, 2008 10:01 PM:

    " Whatever was supposedly said or done to "disrespect" doesn't give the right for a LARGE group to beat 2 people and injure others in the process. How about those who think they were being disrespected showing some respect for the establishment they were in, or respecting the innocent people around that didn't deserve what happened around them. "

    eye witness wrote on Oct 12, 2008 7:47 PM:

    " i think this newspaper needs to get there story straight, why don't they ask the two local tombstone idiots that provoked the fight about how they started disrespecting this group of bikers. "

    To NamVet Independ Biker wrote on Oct 12, 2008 5:19 PM:

    " I totally agree with you on the Vet Orgs standing up to the Biker Orgs, but that's tough to do when the officers are bikers. The old timers are dying off and the rest are the minority. I did not renew my dues because I don't go to the Legion anymore once the biker mentality took over. If the officers at the time had taken into consideration the good of the members before it was sanctioned, it wouldn't be this way. Guess they feel at home with scumbags. "

    NamVet independent Biker cont wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:56 PM:

    " I know the facts aren't all in but it still draws attention to all Vet Biker org. They have used the title Vet to get past the door for personal greed and yes they escort our fallen soldiers, where were they yrs ago? and most don't even attend dinner, breakfast, or functions to support their Posts only their own functions like Biker runs that don't benefit veterans or our needs what so ever. They're like a cancer and choking the life out of Vet org. Come on! Vets let stand up against hese ingrates and save your Posts. Disgusting! "

    NamVet Independent Biker wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:36 PM:

    " These biker Vet org. to include VFW, ALR, consist of some good and some bad members, unfortunaltey they have been recruited from hard core legitimate M/Cs and have brought the immoral, disgusting lifestyle and behavior with them. Some Vet org. are afraid to stand up to them which results in this reckless behavior to continue at the expense of the membership and the good name of the Vet org. Kudos to Post 24 which consist of an excellent ALR to bad Post 52 is not like that. The Legion officers are all ALR. They don't impress me at all. "

    Shameful wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:43 PM:

    " To Curious: Do you think that I would make up the fact that there is video posted on the KOLD website? That would be pretty silly don't you think? Just go to the website and search for "Tombstone" it's the first thing to show at the top. Why be accusatory and negative, why not just ask for the link? Did you actually look for it? or are you just saying you did? "

    Interesting wrote on Oct 11, 2008 7:21 PM:

    " It begining to sound as though Hess messed up. I doubt that either he or the Herald will print a correction. "

    Proud Mom of two servicemen wrote on Oct 11, 2008 2:30 PM:

    " A REAL man does not fight in a crowd, does not need a crowd or cause a scene. only cowards do. A REAL vet(which are heros in my book) does not need to return home to fight amongst his own.
    A REAL man NEVER has to prove himself. "

    1er Texas wrote on Oct 11, 2008 1:44 PM:

    " SOUNDS LIKE THOSE BOYS HAVE BEEN WATCHING TO MUCH SONS OF ANORCHY! HAHA, YOU'D THINK THE LOCAK 1%ERS WOULD TIGHTEN THERE BELTS UP. "

    biker trash wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:57 AM:

    " Before you publish a story you need to get the facts right. The video of this is here. http://www.kold.com/global/story.asp?s=9149240
    It was not the Legacy Riders, they are a Motorcycle Ministry. There are 2 patches in this video, Legacy Vets MC who are a part of the Viet Nam Vets MC and Spartan Riders MC out of Phoenix. One would think the media would do a little research before trashing a club that wasn't even there. Nothing like not letting the facts get in the way of a story. "

    CONFUSED wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:00 AM:

    " I am confused by the information in this news article. Does anyone really know which motorcycle group you guys are reporting about? "Legacy Riders" is a christian motorcycle minisistry whose motto is "Leaving a Legacy of Christ as we ride" see link; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1d_jgtHqPQ
    "Legacy Vets" is part of the "Vietnam Vets M/c, then you have the article calling the Cochise Riders, the Cochise Ghost Riders. Is there no pride in journalism anymore about getting facts straight and accurate reporting? Your writers need to be better at researching information before they put anything in print. "

    To AZ Service Member wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:55 AM:

    " They did't carry themselves as any vet Should, they attacked 2 individuals sitting at a table, now I don't know if they said anything provacative, but, the legasy riders have a violent reputation everywhere they go and you telling me I should back their illegal activities because I am a veteran is like telling me I should back the Abu Ghraib abuses because they are fellow soldiers, NO WAY! If you want respect, act respecatably you will earn it! If you act dishonorably, me as a vet and an active duty spouse, will be the first to stand against you. "

    To AZ Service Member wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:14 AM:

    " Yes ,that is true about sticking together overseas and sticking together here state side, with other people that understand what you went through. But, having 20 upon 2 was unacceptable. I don't know what Vet group you are with. But you need some serious help if you think this is how we conduct ourselves at home.
    The last I remembered this is the United States of America. Why would I, being a tax paying person who walks into a establishment turn right back around just because there were a lot of people wearing the same patch. "

    Curious to see wrote on Oct 11, 2008 7:33 AM:

    " In Response to "Shameful's" below comments, before stating my opinion about the incident just off the written word of this article, I would be curious to see the video myself before making a comment. You said you saw the video on a news website, but I have not been able to locate it. If you did actually watch it, care to post the website link so all of us can see for ourselves? Or are you just saying u did? "

    Disgusted Vet wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:20 PM:

    " I know a member of this group and listening to him talk, this sounds more like a gang disguised as a MC Organization. He seems to get a nut from all the confrontations they get into. Tombstone hotels knew they were coming in town when this was booked months ago. These hoodlums are local and not only from Tucson. Unfortunately, other bikers will feel the effects of these idiots. "

    wee wrote on Oct 10, 2008 8:17 PM:

    " who gave this idiot reporter a pen.
    it is not cochise chost riders, it is not the legacy riders, but the patriot riders that attend/support the military funerals........learn facts before writing! "

    AZ Service Member wrote on Oct 10, 2008 7:54 PM:

    " You know what, i think they carried themselves as any vet would, overseas you fight together with who you are with , why would a vet act any different on home soil. You mess with one you are gonna mess with all, they fought for your freedom overseas and come home and have to fight for their own, if those two would have used common sense and seen a group of individuals of that caliber in one place they should have left them alone. And according to the video no one knows who started it. "

    Sane wrote on Oct 10, 2008 6:59 PM:

    " It sure looks as though there isn't anything that could be called law enforcement in Tombstone. They like the Marshall title, and the swagger that goes with it, all for the tourist's benefit. "

    AngrySeabee wrote on Oct 10, 2008 6:25 PM:

    " What in the ..... That's all I can say after careful consideration. Not all vets act in such a despicable manner, most of us have served our country honorably and continue to contribute to the communities we live in. Of course we always hear about the few who need to take their medication >:( "

    To MarlonBrando wrote on Oct 10, 2008 4:37 PM:

    " The Patriot Riders are the ones that do the military funerals, not the Legacy Riders. Please don't make assumptions. "

    To MarlonBrando wrote on Oct 10, 2008 3:52 PM:

    " The group you are thinking of is Patriot Guard Riders a national level organization that invites ALL MC riders to participate in honoring fallen military members and their families in funeral procession. They have a strict NON-VIOLENCE code of conduct. They are recognized by the Pentagon and are the only MC organization with access to Arlington National Cemetery. The group holds fund raising rides and BBQ's/picnic's but most funds are used for donations to fallen military and dependant college funds.

    Please don't confuse this fine group with the group of HOOLIGANS from Tucson.

    http://www.patriotguard.org "

    was not the LEGION RIDERS wrote on Oct 10, 2008 3:33 PM:

    " These are not the American Legion riders that escourt for the funerals. "

    Veteran wrote on Oct 10, 2008 3:28 PM:

    " These Legacy Riders are a disgrace to Veterans everywhere. "

    Don Diesel wrote on Oct 10, 2008 3:18 PM:

    " First, understand that there are different veteran riders that belong to different organizations. Cochise Riders is a Club. And yes I know some of them. A Club is much different than an Organization. Please don't work up an attitude towards all riders. Don't get the idea that all clubs and organizations are the 60's/70's version of the "Hells Angles" in the 21st century. We aren't. I belong to an organization and all of our members riders or not, support those that have and are now serving. I'm saddened by this event. But don't judge all of us by this mistake. "

    R of SV wrote on Oct 10, 2008 2:36 PM:

    " I really hope this doesn’t hurt peoples opinions on other Veterans Riding Groups in the area.
    You know the ones that are in parades, escorting bodies home and sheltering the families of our
    brave men and women who are fighting overseas. (Yes, they carry flags on their bikes.)
    Kudos to the Cochise Riders for stepping up to the plate and trying to right a wrong. I hope people remember that in the future. "

    a lady who rides wrote on Oct 10, 2008 2:01 PM:

    " to MarlonBrando- NO, those punks aren't the same bikers who ride funeral escorts, or do anything else good or decent in this world either. They are just simply bullies who happen to ride motorcycles. The funeral escorts are done by PGR, VFW, ALR, and all the other decent riders and clubs. I ride every day, and I resent being lumped in with those thugs. PS-take a second to get to know someone who rides. We're decent folk. "

    To MarlonBrando wrote on Oct 10, 2008 1:59 PM:

    " NO!!! This MC has nothing to do with the local respectable riders, I know some of the veterans/riders that do the funeral escorts, and they are appalled at the actions of this MC. Please don't let the actions of these few reflect negatively on the wonderful bikers locally that do a lot for the community. "

    To MarlonBrando wrote on Oct 10, 2008 1:17 PM:

    " No, the funeral escorts are done by Patriot Guard Riders, VFW Riders, and American Legion Riders. "

    To Marlon Brando wrote on Oct 10, 2008 1:04 PM:

    " No they are not the same group that you see doing the escorts. That would be the VFW Riders, Legion Riders and the Patriot Guard. I have never witnessed either one of those groups acting in a manner that would bring discredit upon vets. "

    kong wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:53 PM:

    " there was a regional meeting up there from what I been told. Chapters of this club were from all over state and out of state. I am a former Biker Club member and when disrespected yea we take care of it. is it wrong 15 to 20 against 2 yea but it happens. not all MC's are trouble and get along with many people even independent riders and non club members but there is always that one local in a bar who causes trouble and things happen. it looks bad on all bikers but it happens. "

    Lady Red wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:49 PM:

    " How come there was no mention of one of the Cochise Riders wife, daughter & her husband getting hurt in this brawl as well? That was out on the street with them trying to help the victims then becoming victims as well!! And why did the police take so long to get there? Were the Marshalls scared of the bikers?? Legacy Vets hitting women as well? They don't sound like men to me!! I will not support them at the runs anymore. "

    MarlonBrando wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:31 PM:

    " Isn't this the same group that I see doing all the funeral escorts? all the motorcycles have the large American flags on them. How could these Vets do such a terrible thing? "

    B wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:14 PM:

    " It's Cochise Riders, no Ghost in the name. Thank you for actually printing that the Cochise Riders did try to help out the victims from the beatings. "

    Local Independent Biker wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:55 AM:

    " Rumor from the street say this chapter of the Legacy Riders were from out of state. Though I can say the local chapters aren't much better in my opinion. Nice going vets! The resulting ban will probably spill over into a knee jerk reaction affecting us locals who don't deserve the disrespect. And back in the day of Jimmy Judd law enforcement would have come quickly. Wake up Marshall! "

    Molon Labe wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:38 AM:

    " Obviously these punks don't know that kind of behavior doesn't play well in Arizona. Mark my words; someone's going to wind up dead if they continue conducting themselves in this manner. Sooner or later they will come up against an armed citizen that isn't willing to take a severe beating by 30 thugs. "

    SOMEONE... wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:18 AM:

    " THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LET GANDG IN. THEY CAN NEVER FIGHT FAIR, ITS ALWAYS YOU AGAINST THEM. ITS SAD...AND THEY ALL SHOULD BE BANNED NO MATTER WHERE IT IS!!!!!!PUNKS THATS ALL. "

    LV MC Cowards wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:47 AM:

    " This group of "Veteran Bikers" are a disgrace to all honorable veterans. Why do 30 need to beat up on two? Because they're cowards, that's why. They run around thinking they're some kind of Bad Boy MC, but in actuality they're nothing more than cowards who only find courage in numbers. I bet you never see one of them acting all tough when they are by themselves. "

    Shameful wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:09 AM:

    " Degenerates like this give real bikers a bad name. I watched the video on a Tucson News Stations website, what these cretins did was terrible. They should all be prosecuted, not just the two that started the fight. I'm glad that they are being banned, but that doesn't stop them from removing there "colors" and entering these establishments trying to look "normal". "

    Opie wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:08 AM:

    " No arrests made? That is a "fight"?

    Remind me to avoid Tombstone "

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